Electrical question

[Daryl]

built a garage and had electric put in it. I have a 200amp box and am using only 80amps. My question is I have a shed abot 125-150 feet away that I would like to put lights in and maybe 1 plug in. Can I hook on to box in garage and run wire to shed? What size wire and if i run it from maybe 60 amp breaker would I lose alot of "juice" by the time it got there? I know I would have to put another box there to go back to 120, or at least I think I would. Anyway any help would be appricated.
Thanks
daryl

[egon]

Chances are you would be off running 220 to the shed and reducing it to 120 there. It will let you get by with a smaller wire size.

A 20 amp 220 breaker in garage running 12 gauge wire to box in shed with another 20 amp 220 main breaker. Then down to 120 and 15 amp breakers in the box.

Note; my electrical knowledge is limited at best. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Check your local regulations first.

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Daryl]

Thanks.. Never thought of that.. [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

[chadincolo]

Not true, 220 is simply 2 110 wires, so the difference between running 220 to the shed or 110 to the shed is that 220 will require a bundle with one more wire.

[egon]

Really! [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Ah, ... but here is the kicker..... [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] . When you run a bundle with two hots, one neutral and one green, the neutral can do twice as much work as long as the two hots are not on the same leg. So a 220V 4-wire service to that shed will actually give him two independent circuits of 120V each. Each hot leg can share the neutral. Remember.....this would be technically a SUB PANEL, so you must also run a green to it from your 200A panel AND..... you must also split the two grounding bars in the new sub panel so that the greens go on one bar and the whites go on another. Remove any cross-connection between those bars and don't put the green grounding screw into the bar that has the whites connected to it. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] They make a nice bundled cable for direct burial that has red-blk-wht-grn. If you ran a number 10 cable you would be set up for 30 amps per leg. Number 12 would handle 20 amps nicely, even at that distance. If you put the lights on one leg and the plugs on the other, you'd be in great shape with #12. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Egon, You had the right idea but not the proper mechanization. If you had a 2:1 transformer in the shed to make 120 VAC out of the 240VAC your wire size comments would be correct. This is the motivation behind higher voltage in electrical distribution. You can move the power (P=IE) or (P=E2/R) which shows that raising the voltage will get the power there with less loss if the wire resistance is held constant.

Said another way, higher voltage will let you move power with smaller wires. That is why the utility brings high voltage to your transformer and there drops it to 240 volts (center tapped to give you a pair of 120VAC legs.) IF they distributed 240 volt electricity across the country the wires would have to be simply ENOURMOUS!!! (and in Dave's neighborhood subject to theft.)

For the original poster... If you use large enough wires the loss can be held to any predetermined value over increased distances. Longer run...use bigger wire and the result is the same, loss wise. Pocket book will feel the difference.

Pat

[egon]

Pat; Many a year ago I used the method I described to run power to a garage. It was actually power from the house to the main garage box and then from there to a more distant Garage/shed. My neighbour was an electrician and I just followed his advice. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

I believe I used what is called a double pole breaker at either end and ran a two wire with ground 12 gauge wire. There was no return ground so I had to use a grounding rod at the other end. This would probably not be allowable under today's code. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Now if we could just get rid of Eddy's to keep the cost down! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Egon, Get rid of Eddy's what? Oh, you mean eddies.

Not saying you can't do what you did, you did it. I do however, stick to my guns regarding what you described in your first post on the topic as being incorrect. What I described may power something at the other end but WOULD NOT gain you the advantage of low loss using thin wire due to higher voltage. The hot wires, sized for 220VAC would still be undersized for 110. I realize the size is for amps not volts but if you want to supply 1000 watts you need twice the wire cross section to do it with 110 as with 220.

If you run two wires to the remote location you can have "normal" 220 VAC. If you connect between either of the 220 hot wires and a ground rod (with good conductive dirt) you will get a voltage roughly resembling 110 VAC. It might sometimes electrify a nearby metal gate or run of fence to your great surprise but it will provide a voltage that will run a drill, light a bulb etc. It is
NOT recommended practice.

Having or not having whatever number of breakers of whatever style is not the central issue.

To take advantage of running smaller wires at 220 volts to a remote location and using 110 volts at the remote location near the power capacity of the wires carrying the 220 requires a transformer. Breakers can't do that and using the dirt for a return is shabby practice.

Pat

The old railroad telegraphs used to run a single wire and use "ground" to supply the return circuit. Y can do that with a telephone now but the high level of 60Hz interference will cause quite a buzz.

[egon]

Pat, the double pole?? breaker goes in the breaker box in such a fashion that it's one peg out off step with the rest of the breakers. That is what gives the 220. At the other end the breaker goes in as the main breaker and then you use ordinary breakers in the box for 110.

The grounding system was allowable at that time but is probably not code now. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Spell check can't always determine the correct spelling! [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]