Fuel Efficient 4WD Vehicle

[nbarker]

Does such a vehicle exist (LOL)? Honestly, I know that 4WDs are not as fuel efficient as FWD. However, our new place has a long, steep driveway and I need something that would be able to get up it in the event of snow that hadn't been plowed yet. I am thinking about one of the following:
Subaru Outback
Toyota Rav-4
Honda CR-V

Does anyone have any experience with any of these vehicles? Do you have any other recommendations that I didn't think of? I need something that I'd easily be able to put a car seat in and probably 2 car seats (once we have #2 in a couple of years).

Thanks...
Nicole

[Bird]

The only 4WD I've personally owned was a Suzuki Samurai, but my wife has a brother in the northwest corner of West Virginia and both he and his wife drive Subarus. I think she drives an Outback and he drives a Tribeca. The summer I worked in my brother's tire dealership in Anchorage, I found the Subaru to be pretty popular up there. And from what I've seen and heard, I think if I lived in an area that got much snow and ice, I'd probably have to buy a Subaru.

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] You DO realize that you have asked one of the three "unaskable" questions; you DO know that, don't you? You NEVER ask what brand of oil someone might recommend, what brand of SUV to buy, or what political candidate to support. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] HOWEVER, now that you HAVE recklessly broken the glass, you might as well sit back and read the responses; whacked out though they may be. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] *** In 1997 we moved from the flat topography of the Central Valley of CA to the Gold Rush Country of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Our home was at 4500 Ft in the snowy reaches of the Sonora Pass vacationland. Not only does it snow like mad up there, but there is NO LEVEL GROUND. Downhill hairpin turns in snow can be treacherous, ....UNLESS..... you are driving ALL FOUR SPOTS. And it goes even further than that,.... you have to drive all four spots AS REQUIRED, that is every wheel can go a different speed if needed. To DO THAT, you need a center differential in the transfer case, not merely yoked up four wheel drive. Yoked up FWD makes you go straight in the downhill corners....BAD [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ....and in 2WD, the rear axle gets to the corner before YOU do, ...ALSO BAD [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] . The answer is a vehicle which has full-time, open-center, FWD (Subaru has a great system) which can be "yoked up" as needed for pushing through really deep snow. We bought a new Jeep Grand Cherokee in 1997. It took me three weeks of poring over the literature to spec it out, but what a machine it has been! [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] It now has 218,000 miles on it and I JUST NOW laid the first wrench on the engine (I had to replace the water pump because the seal was leaking). When I spec'd it out, I left off everything that was heavy and unnecessary like the skid plates; which are only needed in rock climbing and which keep vital cooling air off the gearboxes; and the V8 engine which added 200+ pounds to the front axle. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] With the 4.0 inline six, the Jeep has plenty of power and gets, ........24-26 MPG..... WITH air conditioning. I ordered the highest axle gear available so my RPM at 60 is only 1750. The transmission is three speeds plus a 25% overdrive [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] and the transfer case has 4WD (lock) 4WD (open center) and 2WD, all selectable by a LEVER, not a troublesome push button. If I am expecting bad weather I make it a point to fill the fuel tank which gets my vehicle weight very close to 50-50 front-to-rear. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] More times that I can count, I have followed drivers of me-too SUV's up twisty, snowy roads; witnessing their monumental struggles to stay on the road and keep moving foreward; while I calmly drove my Jeep in 4WD (open) and sipped a mocha. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] If I couldn't have a Jeep, I would have a Subaru because of their good balance, their good ground clearance, and the open center FWD. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[jimbrown]

Boy Dave i'm with you. I had a 97 Grand Cherokee that must have been very similar to yours. I drove it all over Europe, Alps and all it was great. At that time jeeps were the most stolen vehicle in Europe. They got wisk away to Bosnia and the like in hours. Just like F250's do to Mexico.

I traded it only because I really needed a truck and the Jeep could not carry the loads that I needed.
I currently have all 4x4 vehicles, a wrangler ( I love it), an Avalanche ( my 2n'd one) great 4x4 the 03 was better than my new 07. and an F250 power stroke ( hauls the mail no matter how heavy everywhere) rides like heck. But i think if you only gonna have one 4x4 it ought a be a jeep.

I was on a safari in Tanzania and our guide had us in a land rover. He ask what kinda car I had I told him a jeep. He was jealous. His comments were that land rovers were good but needed careful driving but that anyone could drive a jeep and never brake it.

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] We have a '79 CJ-7 with a modified Quadra-Trac drive that I call Quadra-Snow drive; I machined the bias clutches out of the barrel differential in the transfer case. We have a '99 Wrangler that I WISH had the 242 treansfer case instead of the 231 (maybe someday we'll do a transplant). We have an '80 GM K20 pickup with the knock-down drag-out SM465/NP205 geartrain and the 14-bolt floater in the rear. Jeepchick drives her Wrangler everywhere and is madly in love with it. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Those new coil spring Jeeps are really a huge improvement over the leafers. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[Pat]

I have not driven the new CR-V but a couple years back when they looked boxier they were terrific in snow. They have a viscous disk power transfer device that engages automatically when the regular drive wheels go faster than the normally coasting wheels. It is not mechanical so it doesn't go clunk. It is very smooth and engages in a fraction of a second. We got to drive for a week in ice and snow. Great little car.

The Subaru all wheel drive is very refined and able but its mileage has been a bit low for my tastes. I almost bought one but opted for a Toyota Prius, as a good front wheel drive with computer stability and traction control is nearly as good as 4wd and we typically get in the 40's with best tank being 52.8 MPG.

Prius is NOT recommended by me for serious hills in ice and snow.

Maybe a Hybrid SUV will get you both the mileage and traction you need. I haven't kept up with who has what but a Hybrid Highlander might be worth test driving.

Here is info for Ford's hybrid Escape.

http://4wheeldrive.about.com/cs/escape/a/00041903a.htm

Pat

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Jeep tried the viscous coupling in the Grand Cherokee models that were made in the very late nineties. I have YET to hear a good word about them because like so many vehicle drive systems that seek to remove all decisions from the driver, they can't cover all eventualities. It is just as important to have all four spots engaged when you are SLOWING as it is when you are PULLING, and that's where ninety precent of the systems are lacking. The idea that there would be an opportunity for torque-initiated engagement is fine for deep sand, but what about ice? In the absence of a system which has four electric hub motors all speed-controlled by a central computer with dynamic braking capability; I still think....heck contend..... that a lever-operated open center/closed center transfer case beats anything else that there is. They use those same NV242 cases in the Hummer, just with a heavier chain on the main drive. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I get a kick outa seeing those liddle me-too SUVeezz driving around which have the exposed half-shafts in the rear. I wonder if anyone has ever wound up about a hundred feet of old telegraph wire or a mass of berry vines around one of those natural "weeders". Off-Road? I don't THINK so; not with that setup. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Well, OK, Dave. I have no "problem with manually shifted type xfer cases starting with my 1943 Ford Jeep and my Corn Binder.

As there are differing requirements for different users. The "best" or even "which is good enough" also varies. The CR-V thingy was supposed to lock up well within a fraction of a revolution of a rear wheel from a front if the difference velocity was sufficient. I don't see how this would not also work in deceleration.

It offered a simple user interface (you didn't have to do anything so a less experienced or less competent user couldn't make a mistake or bad choice.) I drove it on ice and over snow on dirt and gravel roads as well as pavement and it worked well.

Sometimes the really knowledgeable gear head forgets that not every application requires or is even best served by the ULTIMATE system.

It isn't always about which is the ultimate system but is sometimes what is good enough or even what is best for a given (and perhaps limited) set of requirements.

I wasn't suggesting it be adopted for use in a main battle tank, a Duce, or Hummer...

Pat

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] ERK! It's the same old thing, Pat; someone asks me for the time and I find it necessary to give them a dissertation on how to build a good clock. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] You HAVE hit the mark on one point, the average user of a FWD vehicle has NO IDEA what is under the floor OR how it works, OR how to use it. Very few people could tell you the difference between All-Wheel Drive and Four Wheel Drive as the systems are often labeled. I once witnessed an arguement between a guy with a Jeep Regular Cherokee and a bystander. The Jeep guy argued that he had all wheel drive; and the bystander said he didn't. From ten feet away I could see the straight tube front axle in that rare, 2WD Cherokee. That was a real head-shaker. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Pat]

How to make a good clock!!! I usually don't stop there but throw in some history of Horology and the British Crown's prize for a nautical chronometer (as we discussed previously.)

All wheel drive??? Yeah, what's your problem, he was driving on all 4 wheels wasn't he?

If we stop to rant on every tech topic that the ordinary user misunderstands or has no clue about we will not have time for all the rants much less anything else. Consider all the folks using microwave ovens and then consider how many actually understand how it works, even the energy transfer mechanism if not the microwave generation and distribution.

High bypass turbines. Anti-lock brakes, Computer stability enhancement (automotive.) Fly by wire. TV. DVD/CD reading and writing. How the internet actually works at the bit and byte level. Packet communications in general. Fuel cells, solar electric panels. Stuff that people toss around in common conversation that they have little or no understanding of and couldn't describe adequately to explain it to anyone.

When gravity being directed mostly vertically downward (in most people's personal experience) is the upper limit of their understanding of physics and a large portion of the population thinks humans and dinosaurs cohabited the planet (until the great flood drowned the dinos) and... arghhhhh, I better quit before I incite a riot and get burned at the stake.

A computer is an information manipulation appliance. Using it fairly well does not require understanding the underlying technology or the physics of the manufacture of high density chips. Similarly, to be "good enough" a driver does not require much knowledge of the ICE or underlying mechanical technology of power transmission.

Most people who can discern that driving screws is better done with a screwdriver than a hammer can learn to use whatever version of AWD/4wd they have sufficiently well such that they will not harm the equipment very much or often and may profit from its use.

Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic.

At some point people have been exposed to so much "magic" beyond their ken that they are essentially numbed by it and no longer are able to appropriately rightly divine the real from the imagined and tend to equivocate all tech above and beyond them.

Patr
Pat