Fuel Efficient 4WD Vehicle

[Bird]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic.

At some point people have been exposed to so much "magic" beyond their ken that they are essentially numbed by it and no longer are able to appropriately rightly divine the real from the imagined and tend to equivocate all tech above and beyond them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're gettin' personal and talking about me now.

[egon]

Okay; now tell me how these electrical anti corrosion systems for vehicles work! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[egon]

The anti corrosion is a real question as a person I know has just purchased a vehicle with one on it. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

I can understand the very basics of cathodic protection but this car system has me flummoxed! [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Google didn't help me much. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[nbarker]

Thank you all for your replies....
We are going to test drive the vehicles that I mentioned and then go from there. We need to save up a little bit before we buy, since the closing costs on this new house are almost emptying the bank account! [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] (not to mention the JD tractor that my husband just purchased to maintain the property!)

[Pat]

Egon, Review the previous posts in this thread that discuss technology ==&gt; magic and the hrair limit. I think you are in for a voyage of self discovery unless or until Dave weighs in with a detailed explanation not unlike his recent tome on 4x4.

Regarding the actual topic of this thread...

Hybrids may be a reasonable consideration for good reasons which may include but not be limited to GREEN and fuel economy.

Pat

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I was wondering what the weight of the on-board batteries in a hybrid might be? Since we all know that weight is the enemy of performance, how does that extra baggage reconcile with with economy, AND....here is the REAL question.....is anyone actually MEASURING wire-to-wheel efficiency, ie., comparing the watt-hrs taken from the outdoor 110V receptacle in the driveway to the miles traveled to and from the ice cream store, and equating THAT to input HP and then figuring back to an equivalent MPG? Are the hybrids getting a "pass" on the true economy issue because nobody knows how to figure it? Do they just ASSUME they get more bang for their buck? [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I have wondered for quite a while when the car companies might try some kind of anti-corrosion system. The BIG problem here in the Midwest is that the SUMMER CORROSION is not usually caused by electrolysis, but by road dust that collects in little fissures and cavities and when wetted by subsequent rainstorms, releases the corrosive qualities of the dust. Certain types of aggregate that are used on unpaved roads promote very aggressive corrosion when dissolved in water. Of course the salt and ice-melt is the WINTER CORROSION agent and THAT might be much more easily offset by some sort of tricky on-board anti-electrolysis system, since it is not caused by dust but direct contact by a corrosive liquid. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Those of you who were around in da fifties probably remember the tire industry's first foray into nylon tires. For some reason, the static electricity was very high and the auto mfg's added little commutators to each brake drum to provide a path for the current from the wheels to the chassis, and then drained it away with a ground strap. When we bought our new, '97 Jeep Grand Cherokee, it had a terrible static electricity problem. I was afraid that I would blow up a service station someday when I got out of the vehicle, [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] so I finally installed a ground strap. Once the original tires were worn out and we installed a new set, the problem went away. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Take my word for it, Nicole, there is nothing quite as nice as sliding that big door open and seeing a green and yellow John Deere tractor sitting there in the shed. We have two John Deeres; one is a 1952 Model "A" with a Number 45 front end loader on it, and the other is a 2006 Model X300 lawn mower tractor. When I'm not busy writing tractor stories I help my neighbor harvest corn, and when I work for him, my "daily driver" is a 230 HP John Deere Model 8410. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Sure, I love the "pleasant mechanical presence" of my 1952 Poppin' Johnny; it takes me back to my kidhood; but when a cold wind is blowing or it's 90 degrees and humid outside, the air conditioned cab on that big 8410 is sure nice. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[egon]

What confuses me is that the vehicles come with an on board device that sends a DC current. Namely the battery, either negative or positive ground that utilizes the car body and frame for current conduction just to make the regular electric systems of the vehicle work?? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Gee, Dave, you sure sound like you have a couple dull axes.

All of your concerns and others have been cussed, discussed, calculated, approximated, and estimated till the stats guys hyperventilated.

The outdoor outlet is not necessarily in the equation. I have a 2004 Toyota Prius, which I am sure you will agree is a gas electric hybrid. I say again HYBRID... NOT an electric car! It has no place to plug it in, not that a larger battery and a place to plug it in wouldn't be useful for some users in some situations.

My best mileage over a tank (not just coasting down a large hill one time) driving the speed limit or a bit more with the A/C on in town and highway mixed was 52.8 MPG. That is NOT our typical tank. My wife gets in the low 40's and I get in the higher 40's so we average about 44MPG (as reported by Consumer's Union in their magazine Consumer Reports.)

By the way for anyone who doesn't know... The Prius (has seatbelts for 5) seats 4 full sized adults well. I am 6'2" and weigh 250LBS. When I adjust the drivers seat to fit me I can then get in the back seat behind the drivers seat and my knees don't even come close to touching the back of the front seat although rear seat headroom is a bit cramped for me. It is a 5 door hatchback with ample storage. The rear seats fold (separately) for truly cavernous cargo space and it comes with tie down points and cargo net.

The battery in the Prius is under the back seat and is not that huge. It is NOT intended to be driven far on electricity alone but folks have modified them to lock out the ICE and go pure electric for short periods (standard feature in vehicles not imported to USA.)

I have extensively looked at Honda vs Toyota and feel that Toyota has much better technology and a superior approach. They have licensed their Hybrid Synergy drive to other manufacturers. (Ford I think)

I have not investigated Ford or other domestic Hybrids. I dwelled on Toyota because: 1. I think it is the best hybrid system available now, 2. I have one and can attest to the quality of its programing (a very important part of the mix of hardware and software.) I feel qualified to judge their software due to my MS in Software Engineering and years of experience. Not to grind it too fine but SOFTWARE is more important to a hybrid than it is even to the normal computerized automotive systems (which as you know are pretty deep into computer control.)

Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive, coupled with some of their mechanical innovations, is really quite elegant and just plain works well. I only have 35,000 miles on our Prius but a friend was so impressed with ours that he bought a 2005 and he has well over 100,000 on it and is still pleased as punch.

OK, that is my pitch for the boys at Toyota understanding how to make a good hybrid.

If I had concerns in some or all of the following categories: GREEN, current cost per mile to operate, trend line of gasoline prices, delay waiting for conveniently located hydrogen fuel stops, and similar then I would be at least looking at all the available Hybrid SUV offerings from the major manufacturers like Toyota, Ford, etc. if I wanted to find the vehicle that would provide the lowest cost per operational mile (not just mileage) while offering at least the minimum subset of capabilities I needed.

It is unreasonable to expect gasoline will drop to $2/gal. It is much more likely to reach $5/gal. Alternative fuels such as corn based ethanol are a short term stop gap passion play and will not stand the test of time. Other processes using other feed stocks will come to the fore but will still have the ICE as the target consumer. If you are going to run an ICE (gasoline or equivalent or diesel) it is more economical to go hybrid in the range of vehicles for the average family(sedan, SUV.) (Not talking long haul truckers, or replacing a Cumins-Dodge or Ford PS, or ...)

Now then Dave, since you apparently want to discuss electric vehicles or at least hybrids with a plug-in, lets do it.

Economy of scale and load leveling will let the power plant burn fuel more economically and cleaner than an ICE. Enough so that the electrical equivalent of xx gal of gas can be delivered to your electrical outlet cheaper than you can fill up at current prices and especially at the prices you will see in a couple years.

Then there are the considerations for energy storage and conversion, i.e. batteries and motors. Electric motors have excellent characteristics for variable demand applications such as automotive use, high efficiency and easy regulation over the full range of speeds. The bone of contention, I think you will agree, is mostly in the batteries and to a lesser degree wheel costs for delivery of electricity to your outlet.

Currently you can buy the equivalent of a tank of gasoline as electricity delivered to your garage cheaper than buying the gasoline. This will be even more so as gasoline prices continue to increase much faster than electricity.

In my opinion affordable electric cars for the masses are not here yet and the single worst stumbling block is batteries and their various problems, especially energy density. Long range electric cars are like chemical rockets. The rocket is mostly fuel and the car would be mostly batteries (with todays technology.)

While a fascinating topic, electric cars are not particularly related to the topic of this thread. Gasoline electric hybrid (or when available, diesel electric hybrid) vehicles do fall under "Fuel Efficient 4WD Vehicle" and at least one of us thinks they are a viable alternative or should at least be considered before making a final selection.

This presumes that the decision will be an informed decision giving weight to life cycle costs and not just the color of the interior. You need to consider many things besides the purchase price. You need to get realistic estimates of all costs over the life of the vehicle including insurance, tires, fuel, regular maint and if available (check with Consumer Reports) an idea of how trouble free that model has been if it has been out over a year) Then you can compare cost of ownership for 5 or how ever many years which does not necessarily follow the purchase price. Sometimes a more expensive car is cheaper to own for 5 or more years than a more cheaply priced one.

Pat