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[Pat]

They have this high tech ID system called "a brand" which can assist in the issue of disambiguation of ownership for open range cattle.

There is even a higher tech method called EID (Electronic ID) which uses a subcutaneously embedded electronically scanned barcode sort of thingy. As cattle pass by the reader it captures the ID number which is registered to a specific owner/specific site ID, and specific animal. There are hand held scanners as well for portable field use.

Oklahoma is a fence-in state. Owners/managers of livestock are required by law to fence in the livestock. There is an actual specification (rather loosely written) which spells out what constitutes due diligence with respect to fencing in stock. I think it is three strands of barbed wire for cattle. If you have properly constructed fences that meet the state description and then stock gets out you are not automatically at fault.

I personally have 5 and 6 wire barbed wire fences. As I change out old wire or build new fences I use only 4 point wire. Minimum fence as prescribed by state law allows 2 point wire. I am currently fencing in some of my as of yet not fenced in highway frontage. I am using graduated field fence as the space will be used as a maternity ward part of the time and small calves will go right through a barbed wire fence. They may not figure out how to get back in but they always figure out how to get out.

I think all states should go to fence-in laws but big cattle guys are often well connected politically and so it may be a while. Why should everyone else have to protect themselves from someone else's animals? Isn't it a lot like if you started shooting at random toward the land outside your borders and if anyone didn't like the potential consequences then they could put up berms to stop the bullets and protect their interests?

Oh, nice entry.

Pat

[jimbrown]

Pat Some of them are not branded specially calves and some got two or three brands on em. i don't think any of these guys use the electronic tagging.

Here is the Az definition of a lawful fence.

Unfortunately most of mine is 4 strand smooth wire for horses. It is plenty of fence to keep them in Just does not keep the cows out.

3-1426. Lawful fence defined
A. A fence shall be deemed a lawful fence when it is constructed and maintained with good and substantial posts firmly placed in the ground at intervals of not more than thirty feet, upon which posts are strung and fastened at least four barbed wires of the usual type tightly stretched and secured to the posts and spaced so that the top wire is fifty inches above the ground and the other wires at intervals below the top wire of twelve, twenty two, and thirty two inches. If the posts are set more than one rod apart, the wires shall be supported by stays placed not more than seven and one half feet from each other or from the posts, extending from the top wire of the fence to the ground, and each wire of the fence securely fastened thereto.
B. All fences constructed other than as provided in subsection A, or of other materials equally as strong and otherwise effective to turn livestock as the fences described in subsection A, shall also be deemed lawful fences within the meaning of this section.

[Pat]

Jim, I wasn't really serious with the brand and EID comments.

I understand your frustration with range cattle breaking your fences.

I was, however, serious about the moneyed cattle interests being entrenched politically and typically having more clout/juice than you and I.

What was noticed due to its absence in the legalese you posted was anything regarding who had to build the fence.

If AZ is a fence out state then you are in a pickle and all the responsibility is yours.

I realize you don't want your horses up against barbed wire. It works for a lot of folks a lot of the time but horses being what they are, prey animals, they can spook for about any reason or no reason at all you and I can see and get cut up on barbed wire.

If I were in your situation I would probably put up a strand or two of electric fence on the outside of the posts on extended insulators. These are available at most vendors of electric fence supplies. They are available in different lengths but about 6 inch is a common size (but I would buy longer if easily available.) These snap onto T-posts. If the T-posts are turned "the other way" then you will have to fuss a bit and wire them to the posts or whatever ingenious method you come up with.

Anyway, with the hot wire extended outward away from your land it is much less likely your horses will contact it if they aren't trying to graze the other side of the fence. I'd choose a fence charger that packed a real wallop, something recommended for bulls. You want a high joule rating, low impedance charger, a "weed burner." None of the chargers sold these days are dangerous to people and stock even children and foals. They give an uncomfortable shock but it is not a health issue. Chargers are often marketed on miles of fence they will handle. In practice it is unlikely the average user will get good service at the rated mileage. I recommend a charger rated for much much more mileage than the length of your fence.

I try really hard to keep my stock fenced in. Just two days ago a week old calf got out by the state highway. Luckily they don't stray far and they soon try hard to get back to momma. I found two places that looked to be likely suspects for where the calf could have gotten out and fixed them both the same day.

I have never had an adult animal get through a fence (with one exception.) I did have someone leave a gate open and one heifer grazed her way to the ditch beside the state highway.My wife got a call from the local law, another from a sheriff's deputy, and one from the highway patrol. I took off immediately on the first call and by the time I got there a neighbor had put her back and locked the gate.

Exception: I have had a neighbor's bull (neighbor south of me) go through the common fence to get across my property to go through the common fence with another neighbor (east side) to tussle with the other neighbor's bull. A friend whose bull is on my place tussled with the south neighbors bull and between them they took out 3-4 strands of the 5. None of this put stock on the highway, just messed up common fences which is what happens when you have neighbors raising cattle too. Luckily I have road frontage on two sides, a half mile of state highway and a half mile of graveled section line which leaves me one 40 acre pasture with no common fence.

Theoretically, if your fence meets the state requirements here in Oklahoma and an animal gets in the road you are not responsible for liability damages. My standards are different. I am currently putting up graduated field fence for a quarter mile of my highway frontage. It is impenetrable to even the smallest calves. Liability or not, I don't want one of my animals injured and I sure don't want to have one of my animals get someone killed or injured in a car wreck whether or not it costs me a dime.

Good luck, I hope you find a solution to your stray cattle problem. Maybe one of them will stray into a big pit BBQ.

Pat

[JazzDad]

Pat, it's typically so dry where Jim is, that he would have to put up two strands of electric- one hot and the other a ground. It's been so dry here lately that I can contact the fence and barely not feel it. (My setup uses the earth as the return path.)

[Pat]

Right on Jazz. if it is that dry you need multiple wires ( at least two) alternating hot and ground. Start with a hot wire on top.

In the situation at hand, if I thought no one would pop a gasket I'd probably run an electric fence outside of my regular fence. I'd use small diameter rebar pieces about 3 1/2 or 4 ft long driven in the ground with two or more strands of galvanized single strand wire (not barbed) with a super hot fence charger. Alternatively there are fiberglass wands that are pretty cheap for electric fence posts. I use them and like them.

With the electric fence a foot or two outside the horse fence, the horses should very rarely contact the hot wire. Cattle usually get electric fence smart with only a couple zaps. Do put some white cloth flags tied every 10-15 feet along the hot wire. This will ensure the stock sees the fence. Often a cow that is not electric fence savvy will go up to the white cloth and sniff it to see if it is something to eat and zzzzzap!

Hey, Jazz, thanks for reminding me that Arizona is Arid Zona!

Pat

[egon]

Jazz; that is your system just absorbing all the energy. You may be one of the new electro species that dine on electrical energy! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[jimbrown]

Pat at one time I had electric all around but 1 1/2 miles of electric is hard to keep working. Plus the cows that give me the most trouble are not beef cattle they are stock raised for rodeo animals. They simply are not phased by things that keep normal semi domesticated beef animals away. Most of them have been poked, prodded, shocked and who knows what else. And they are smart (at least for cows) I watched one day when three of them wanted thru the fence. The alpha cow walked up to the fence and stood there two others lined up on both sides they hooked the wire with their horns and simply walked forward until they pulled enough wire down to walk thru it. I try not to get too close to them they got BIG horns.