Propane generators

[jml755]

Sounds lucky that you still have power. Been reading posters online along the storm path (IN, KY, etc) with stories of 2 inch ice buildup on limbs/wires.

Come to think of it, with all the recent disasters, I think a good investment might be stock in standby generator manufacturers. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

53 deg sounds positively tropical. This weekend up here is supposed to stay below freezing. I've got to get up on a metal barn roof and install a vent on Saturday. Not looking forward to that: icy, slippery, cold. Only bright side is that there's a pony paddock on that side of the barn filled with "processed hay". So any unanticipated trip down the roof will at least end in a "soft" landing. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I have decided to go on record as being extremely skeptical about the whole notion of selling automatic standby generators to Helen and Ted, the suburban-dwelling, phone-calling, check-writing, consuming, homeowners. The manufacturers of these units have either put a little Gnome inside each one; with a good supply of dried fruits and a few nuts to sustain the little guy over time; so he can look after the unit and make sure it starts and transfers, OR.... there has been some MAJOR breakthrough in the very recent past that has made these complex devices totally foolproof. As many of you know, high-reliability organizations spend THOUSANDS each year on servicing their Automatic Transfer Switches, and EVEN THEN they will sometimes give trouble. The notion that a gen set can sit outside in somebody's flower bed for months, even years and then quickly and positively answer the call for power when an outage occurs is VERY hard for someone who has spent time around standby power systems to imagine. So I'm going on record as saying that: "It SOUNDS good, but the reality is very different." [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Just think back to the GM Dieselcars of the late seventies and early eighties. They sold them to homeowner-consumers, and they were only fit for sale to REAL diesel guys like me. I drove them for years with some slight mods to the systems; cars that I bought from disgruntled "consumers" after they couldn't keep them running. Whoever is on the other end of the "hotline" for these auto-start generators is not likely to get much rest over the next few years. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[jml755]

Interesting comments, Dave.
Not having an auto-switching, permanent generator, I can't dispute or agree with what you say. But the generators do a weekly run that will exercise the inner workings, so I would think the only question would be the ATS. I don't know if they exercise the switch weekly. I would think not. (I mispoke in my earlier post about wiring my Transfer Switch. It's a MANUAL transfer switch, not an ATS).

I'm curious, what is so troublesome about the ATS that you've worked on? I'm thinking relays in a box. If they use a good quality industrial relay I would think they would hold up. In fact, I recall looking at the relay in my AC unit a few years ago after a service guy said it needed replacing. The contacts were somewhat burned after 18 yrs of cycling, so I just filed them clean, figuring I'd get a new one in a day or so. Promptly forgot about it and like I said it's been a few years.

Actually, I think the gnome might cause more problems, storing his dried fruits and nuts in the relay box, keeping the NO contacts from closing when you need them. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Considering Pat to be the intelligent, analytical person that he seems to be, I hope he'll let us know what he thinks of the setup and how well he thinks it would work for Helen and Ted as well as "Jerry and Debbie" as I hope to install one someday. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

BTW, I worked for Detroit Diesel Allison (then a part of GM) in the late 70s early 80s and had 5 or 6 of those Olds diesels. Always got rid of them before 50k miles. That was a poor implementation of a diesel. The REAL diesel engineers at DDA just shook their heads. Actually, DDA had a poor reputation in the diesel world back then as well, sold mostly to fleets and for gensets. I think Penske fixed a lot of that.

[GaryM]

Pat, a suggestion if it's not too late. Use a maintenance free 12V starting battery for the genset. I didn't and the darn thing ran very low on water. I noticed it had not run that week and went to check on it. Lifted the lid and hit the manual crank and the battery blew up on me. Piece of plastic hit my glasses and chipped the lens. Also got hit with a little acid in the face, but got that rinsed right off with no damage. No one would have noticed anyway!

I replaced the battery with a maintenance free Optima. Had to modify the battery compartment a little to get it to fit.

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] A roomful of Automatic Transfer Switches is no place for a neophyte. I always tried to be the supportive person to the expert person, and did my best to scan the ATS with INFRARED and make sure that the jaws were transmitting currnet without overheating, and LEAVE THE TECHNICAL STUFF to the ATS expert. The complexities pertaining to AT switches are usually, but not always, centered in the controller; no big mystery there. Sometimes the units will run on "exercise mode" for A WEEK before somebody notices; or they will start when signalled by an outage, go parallel, and then never cut in. It's a very complicated process, especially with multiple units putting current onto a common bus. Having auto-standby power SEEMS simpler and easier than it actually is. In 1993 or so, there was a big earthquake in So Calif. The NUMBER OF HORROR STORIES that came out of So CA regarding standby power should have been made into a book on "how NOT to set up standby power, and how NOT to maintain the equipment. Many of the horror stories were about outfits who bought and paid for standby power, and that was the end of it. NO scheduled Maintenance, NO service program for the unit; and forget the weekly "freshen-up" run; that feature hasn't worked in years. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Here is a question for you DDA guys: What IS IT about a DDA that makes it such a good engine for a gen set? YES,... I KNOW they leak oil, but even if they DO fog up the generator shack and make the floor get kind of slippery; they have a redeeming feature that makes them good for generators. What is it? [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[jml755]

CjDave,
Honestly can't tell you. Don't know if it's a technical advantage, marketing thing or price issue. Next time I talk to one of my old buddies at DDA, I'll ask them. I do know that the gensets were installed all over the world and we had a pretty good parts network. We had a policy that if you ordered a part by 2:00 PM from the main warehouse near Detroit, we'd have it on a plane that night. Now, that was 30+ yrs ago when overnite service from UPS & FEDEx weren't taken for granted. Also, that "part" could be a block for a rebuild. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Pat]

JML, Gary, Dave, et al, Thanks for everyone's comments. MY genset did not come with a starting batt. It takes a group 26R with a minimum of 500 or so CCA. I planned on using a sealed maint free batt. Now after hearing from Gary I am definitely absolutely going that way. Sorry to hear of your calamity, Gary, but pleased it turned out OK.

The batt maintainer (float charge unit) is installed in the ATS) I need to buy a thermostatically controlled batt heater pad to sit the batt on to get good power out of the batt in cold weather. I'd rather have a warm batt and cold engine (especially one fueled with vapor) than vice versa.

Mine will exercise once a week. I can put a counter on it or a totalizing timer like a Hobbs meter but it has a built in maint minder to remind you of various service intervals so extras may not be needed to track its history and it will set an alarm code in the controller if it has a starting problem or whatever. There is a LCD readout for comms with the controller.

I hope the horror stories from Dave and my reality are disjoint.

So far I am really impressed with the looks of the internals of the unit. VERY professional layout, really sanitary. Good sound proofing and a good attractive case. I have already converted it from nat gas to propane, a simple operation. Just moved a manual slide on the air intake under the air filter cover. I think it will be easy to service. The spin on filter is easy to get to and the crankcase drain is on a hose you can move the end of to get it out of the enclosure and not make a mess with the old oil. The oil fill is in easy reach too. Not sure how easy access is for a valve adjustment but that will be a while.

So far as wiring it up is concerned I should think the actual connections to the house wiring would be the same for ATS or manual switch. The electrician I will have coming out to help me with some other stuff has done some gensets so can help me with the ATS wiring. We are considering some options. One is to get all critical circuits onto one of the two each 200 amp side by side breaker boxes/panels and just switch that one whole panel to the genset or else just wire in the ATS in conventional "by the book" manner following the installation instructions. We'll see.

Pat

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] The two-stroke Detroit Diesels were a superior engine for gen sets because they fired twice as many times per two revolutions, and therefore could pounce on changing loads with less noticeable power lag. If the DD was a V-12, that was so much the better for following a changing load. In my experience, the DD could fire, and get to 1800 RPM a little faster than a four-stroker. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, what about the time delay relays for the A/C? Many A/C systems already have them, but if not you can add them in the 24V control circuit very easily. I have them on on all my setups so the compressors don't get slammed during a summertime momentary power failure. I have mine set fot two minutes of delay. The thermostat calls for "cool"; the fan starts, and the compressor follows in two minutes. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I just finished a standby generator setup in a suburban area. The guy wanted the gen set to be in the detached garage, which was about twenty-five feet away. His gartage is built on a side hill with the radiator end of the cars five or six feet higher than the floor in the lower level. It's a good setup for disposing of exhaust since the genset is on the street level.
We ran underground conduit to the garage and pulled new feeds TO the garage and pulled generator feeders FROM the garage in the same conduit. Luckily, he had installed the conduit months ago because the ground is now frozen soild. So the guy starts the gen set and then goes into the basement of his house and transfers a big cord (like a range cord) from one 240V 50A 4-pole outlet to one which has a RED cover plate, and then closes a fusible disconnect which then connects the gen set to the red-painted plug. That cord he moved goes to a "critical loads" panel which has the microwave and the rest of the essentials on it. This was a fairly lo-buck system and works very well. I have always liked the idea of having a "critical loads panel" separate from the non-critical loads panel. It eliminates the need for a big double-throw switch because the feed for it can be manually transferred via a big plug. Sort of a poor man's ATS so to speak. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]