Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction

[avorancher]

Unless they have changed it since last year, your salesperson needs some more training. "B" is for braking, and it is useful when going down long slopes... similar to taking the overdrive off on a regular auto transmission. It doesn't seem to affect mileage much if any. I sometimes use it around town when I want more "engine" feel.

Also, after about 6 months, you won't be watching the monitor anymore. It is good in the beginning to help you understand how things work and to get you used to feathering the gas. Oh yeah... it is cool when you give rides to others too.

To use the battery more, you just use less gas pedal. It is surprising how much you can raise your foot and still maintain the same speed. The car is a hybrid, therefore you cannot run on the battery alone by choice. The computer decides what you need based on speed, position of gas pedal, temperature, current charge levels, etc.

One thing that really freaked me out at first was the inability to rev up the motor in neutral. You can push the pedal all the way down and nothing happens. I have also gotten used to just turning the key on quickly, then letting the car start itself. When I do the same in my other vehicles, and I just sit there wondering why the engine doesn't start.

I hope you'll be as happy with your purchase.

[GaryM]

Thanks for the clarification on the "B". I'm looking forward to receiving my unit, but not 'till March at least. Unless someone else decides not to take theirs anyway. Back in October I was thinking I might have one for my Christmas trip to Florida. Would be nice to drive from St. Louis to ft. lauderdale on about 23 gallons of gas. Maybe next year.

The URL posted by Pat has some interesting posts if you've not visited that site.

[Pat]

Gary, I have used similar terms for cashregister jockeys such as voice activated terminal interface and so forth.

"B" Well Gary, OM, this is likely not to come as a surprise but your salesman, however well intentioned, is misinformed and has misinformed you. Even the Toyota glossy handout literature at the dealer calls it engine braking or some such. The B position is for regenerative braking on long downhill runs. A regular gas engine powered car does this for you as a normal operation with no extra control required. The Prius will shut the gas engine off when it isn't needed for power and then coasting down a hill could become interesting since they have cut back on friction brake capacity, knowing the regenerative braking will take up the slack (while increasing front tire wear.) So we have the B position on the selector switch that emulates a gear shift.

If you find more than a trivial error in my presentation then I owe you a rootbeer float (at the icecream emporium of my choosing.)

Fly by wire on the B2 or the advanced tactical fighter or wherever, works pretty much that way. Our highly manuverable latest generation fighters are highly manuverable because they are inherently unstable. The flight control computer makes thousand of small corrections to keep them more or less looking like they are stable fliers. And you are right again... The pilot through stick, rudder, and throttle is telling the aircraft what he wants the aircraft to do (in terms of how a normal aircraft is controlled) and the flight computer makes it happen within limits. There are safety issues. the computer wil not give full control entension when commanded by the pilot if that would be "out of the envelope" and say for example, rip the wings off or shed the stabilator.

Prii (plural Prius) are drive by wire. The steering is electrical with human steering wheel imputs as requests. Like with conventional hydraulic power steering, if the steering unit goes out you can steer but with difficulty. Similarly, the braking is brake by wire. The computer decides from your pedal pressure and other inputs what to do about applying the brakes. It gives priority to regenerative braking as long as enough braking force is available to "match" the demand indicated by how hard you press the brake pedal. The computer will mix in some proportional amount of friction braking as required to get the job done. In case of system failure, pressing down even harder (natural driver reaction to not getting the brake effect desired) will engage the friction brakes and stop you like a regular car unless you are on a long steep hill where the slightly downsized brakes might not be adequate.

In addition to ABS some accessory packages for the Prius have computer controlled stability enhancement which is sort of like the fly by wire. It "does things" to help keep the car in stable control when the computer senses that you are loosing control.

I was proud to be so good at taking a swing axle bug through tight decreasing radius turns as fast as just about anyone and learned to handle the abrupt changes from over to understeer as you cornered a bug briskly. I could "panic stop" with the experts and not lock up the wheels or veer out of my lane, pumping the brakes with the best of them. I drove a 165 MPH capable Sunbeam Tiger on ice for two winters in Minot, ND with nary a scratch.

Now with ABS, traction control, stability control, and so forth, my wife can control a car in suboptimal conditions with a terrifically enhanced degree of safety without giving it a single thought. A coma car (can be driven safelly by someone in a coma) is a good thing. If it also gets 50-60 MPG , has enough power to pass and merge safely, stops very well by just shoving on the brakes, corners decently, turns in a short circle, is comfortable for 4-5 folks, has ample package space, folding rear seats, more air bags than a fleet of hot air baloons, comfortable quiet ride, hands free cell phone interface, voice activated GPS nav system with dash mounted display, HID headlights, foglights, in-dash 6 CD changer and multi-speaker sound, and on and on and on, and is currently being sold by a company with a terrific reputation for relsale value and low frequency of repair, then it almost sounds too good to be true.

You can wait for some indeterminate time to buy a fuel cell car that has limited fueling stations or you can buy the second generation hybrid which is here now and use a lot less imported oil while waiting for the fuel cell to become practical in the hands of the manufacturers of some of the worst frequency of repair lowest resale value cars on the road.

NOTE: I hear from my spies in San Diego that there is now a Government sponsored fueling station vending biodiesel, CNG, propane, etc and will add on hydrogen in the future (the year 3000 is in the future. They don't say when in the future.)

Pat

[livincountry]

I think I have made my decision. I would love to have the car but having to sign on to a waiting list is against my better judgement. Toyota has enough support. I will look elsewhere until supply meets demand and there are more manufacturers to choose from. I will review the options again in a year or three.

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> but having to sign on to a waiting list is against my better judgement. </font color>
Is the Hybrid from Honda as hard to get?

[Pat]

Livincountry, I believe you may have made a wise choice, depending, of course, on your specific circumstances.

My wife and I want a new car, mostly for her, and she is willing to wait 6 months to get the Prius the way we want it. The Toyota Synergy hybrid technology will be available in the Toyota Highlander starting about this time next year and in more Toyota models as time passes. It is conceivable that folks who are on the waiting list for a Prius that they can't get till '05 will just go for the Highlander instead. I doubt that Toyota will superunderestimate demand for this technology twice in rapid succession. They are pretty sharp business folk, not stupid.

This Toyota technology, Synergy system, is head and shoulders above the Honda Civic hybrid, far superior, not really directly comparable, different approach. It will almost assuredly be lisc by some American manufacturers who periodically pay lip service to fuel cells. Where do you and I buy a fuel cell vehicle and if we had it how would we fuel it? For the next few years to a decade, hybrid technology is likely to develop and retain significant market share. One day you may be able to buy a fuel cell powered car and conveniently fuel it but instaling the infrastructure will take some time. Synergy hybrids burn the low octane regular, available everywhere and are happy with it.

The only thing you have to lose by waiting is the waiting... If you got on "THE LIST" now you would likely be months from getting a Prius (even if you are willing to accept whatever package is available and would find it hard to get a specific color and accessory package. Toyota is not taking orders from dealers. Toyota is making cars and doles them out to dealers who have absolutely no control over what they are allocated. There is about a five day period after the allocations (on about a 45 day cycle)come out when the various dealers in a Toyota region (Oklahoma is in a 5 state region with cars coming to port in Texas) can access the allocations by computer and see what if anything they are allocated and what the others are getting. Then the inter-dealer horse trading starts. Some regions are allocated only certain trim packages and the others are not available there. The "WORKS" package #9 is in the highest demand and unfortunately the shortest supply, a double whammy.

We are number one on the list at our dealership and have our pick as allocated cars come in but it could be 6 months or longer before we see a #9 or it could be next week (6 months is a safer bet.) If we were actually in a bind and really needed a car soon that would be entirely different but we have the luxury of being able to wait. If you have the luxury of being able to wait for 5-6 years you'll have quite a selection to chose from.

I am personally curious and anxious to see what the impact of the Toyota Synergy hybrid is on "conventional" car sales. If you can buy a Synergy pickup or Synergy SUV or sedan that can do what you need done, then why buy conventional and get 1/2 the gas mileage? It will make it increasingly harder to sell gas hogs. It might also give OPEC pause to consider their long range plans. That would thrill me a lot.

I heard that opportunists with high demand Prius packages have offered their allocated car on eBay at a considerable premium to tap into the $ of fanatics who demand instant gratification.
This is truly a strange car buying situation.

Pat

[avorancher]

When I bought my Prius last year, there were 3 on the lot and they were moving slowly, so I got a great deal. How things change.

I purchased one of the first Honda Accords in 76 and was on a waiting list for 3 months to get it. People were offering me cash to take my place on the list near the end of the wait. It is not so bad to wait and it makes taking possession sweet.

[Pat]

avorancher, What is the minimum oil content to make a good commercial product?

Oh... Prius... Last year... So that means you have the Classic version, "Prius I". I have driven one of those. The '04 ,"Prius II" is a very different car. It is a larger, heavier, more powerful, and more comfortable car which through the lessons learned with Prius I and the intervening time to incorporate them gets even better mileage.

With the '03 "Classic" Prius we drove my wife was very conscious of the limited trunk storage, lift required to get stuff in and out of trunk, and the lack of folding rear seats. Had we been shopping for a sedan, it would have probably received higher marks but we started out looking at crew cab trucks then progressed to small SUV and crossover vehicles. We had narrowed the search to Subaru Forester, Honda CR-V (The Honda hybrid is a distant non-serious competitor for the Toyota original or new veresion) and the new Prius.

The new Prius with a kind of hatch back, no barrier to lift things over, independently folding 60/40 split rear seats and more rear seat legroom that the CR-V or the Forester and a comfortable driving position for me (didn't have that capability in the Forester), great MPG, total air bag coverage, and good enough gadgets/acccessories including voice activated GPS it was bumped up ahead of the CR-V.

This is in no way a slam on the Prius I, it was a good car and the basis of the evolution to Prius II but just not what we wanted. I woild have taken the CR-V over the Prius I. Now wew are willing to wait 6 more months for the Prius II which is an indication of its increased desirability which overwhelmed the production capacity with demand. Sometimes only a minor adjustment is required to go from OK but not widely appealing to being unable to make them nearly fast enough which seems to be the case with Prius II.

What sort of unscheduled maint has been required for your Prius? What kind of mileage do you get? How do your tires last (front and rear) Do you see a big dip in MPG during the winter weather? How is traction in snow and on ice? Please answer the other questions that I would have asked if I knew what I was doing.

Thanks in advance,

Pat

[GaryM]

Pat,
I'm sure you've been visiting the Priusonline web site you posted about. Some of the folks on there claim the wait might be a YEAR! I find that hard to believe. Who would take delivery of an '04 when there are '05s being delivered? Or are we reverting to a time when the cars model year actually meant it was purchased that year?

Just have to wait and see I guess. I'll be driving the Subaru to work in place of the Expedition while I wait.

[Pat]

SInce Toyota has just made a major change in the Prius going from '03 to '04 and the '04 design is in much greater demand than supply, it is extremely unlikely they will make a change for '05. Therefore I expect at some particular time as cars flow down the conveyor belt they will make a change in the VIN code to indicate '05 and that is likely to be the only difference.

There will of course be defections to other Toyota products as well as other brands because many folks won't weight, even for a good thing. Since the Highlander is scheduled to offer the synergy hybrid as an option in '05, a lot of folks on the Prius list will likely go that way if the Highlander becomes available without too much more wait than they are facing say, 6-9 months from now. My intel says Highlander should just start being sold about this time next year.

I just talked to sales manager this afternoon. He could offer no words of encouragement and says it could easily be another 6 months or more for us to get a package #9 (we are number 1 on the list and get first right of refusal as Prii come into the dealership). #6 is much easier, not sure about the others. It is unfortunate that you paused as the additional wait will probably exceed your delay in ordering, not a day for day slip.

Pat