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Thanks Pat for your info. I had to sketch out your "invention" which is one of those "wish I'ld thought of that" things. You've got me thinking I might could increase the thermal air flow by adding soffit vents between each rafter on our typical brick ranch. It has end gable vents and a couple non-powered dome type vents, but it is HOT -hot in attic. Now on my barn (with 26x51 loft room ) I might employ your idea and add the additional supports in attic like in your Mom's porch. I have 2x4 scissor truss with top cord at 6-12 with 3-12 lower, and it has a nice cathedral ceiling effect. Once the metal roof goes on I expect increase in temp up there. But until I get the stairs done it ain't a problem. I suppose I could attach to the underside of top rafter cord a foil backed ridged foam (don't want to add too much weight ) and create a "plenum" about 2ft below the ridge running to the end gable vents...might need a fan in one...If this was done and I put in F/G batts on ceiling I'ld still need to vent the space between the batts and the underside of ridged foam...not sure how that would get vented perhaps I could circulate it through the shops below. I'll have to munch on this a bit. I answered my own question, I'm using 1/4x4" carriage bolts on the bander board (some call it "ledger") We get fairly high winds through here at times and I don't want the thing to blow off in a minor gust. I epoxed 1/2 anchor bolts in concrete slab for the 6x6 posts, so that is secure but I wanted the wall end to be as well...just don't trust 3/4" of nail to hold. Anyhow you've given me some avenues to ponder and I thank ya.
Have a blessed mediocre country weekend mi amigo,
rg
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RG, You should consider a ridge vent. They are particularly well suited for the ducted chanel of the ventilated deck. Gable end vents are usually either too far away from the air inlet or too small or both and just don't move enough air to keep the "attic" temps down.
We are discussing solar energy mostly. The sunshine is causing the overheating. Harnessing the sun's heat to extract the sun's heat is effective and practical. As the problem intensifies so does the effort to clear the problem. It is sort of like the solar electric roof on my slide in pickup camper when we go to the desert. If the sun shines enough to make it uncomfortably hot then the solar panel makes more than enough electricity to run the swamp cooler.
A large funnel type ventilaltor (like on ships) but designed to rotate so that the open end is always pointing downwind will extract a lot of hot air when there is a wind blowing but on a still day does little. The ventilated deck approach (like your adding a layer of insulation below the tin roof to form an air chanel) is solar powered by the chimney effect of the rising convection currents and needs no wind to work.
The ridge vent will work well in concert with the convective chanel with no wind required but if there is wind that is at least partly blowing across the ridge rather than along it, then the ridge vent really shifts into overdrive and sucks out prodigious quantities of ait. I like to minimize the need for fans unless there is no other practical way. My new house, including the shop/garage, has continuous ridge vents and ventllated eave soffits. There is an octagonal gable end vent above the garage doors but it is purely decorative and the wall isn't cut out.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Hey Pat,
I had to call on some "Son power" this weekend, as I had a touch of food poisoning....and although I didn't do much building, it kept me off the roof.
To me, any intential "hole" in a roof is a leak ready to drip so I've not really considered installing a leak, I mean a ridge vent, although all my ref. books say how it is superior to gable vents. wanted to use standing seam but the price ran me back to screw-down galvalum panels.
However, re-considering the dynamics for thermal cooling I agree the ridge vent has greater performance. And if I can incorporate your "invention" to channel the air flow under the roof deck, I think it will provide the thermal cooling the building actually requires. So, I'll follow your lead and add a ridge vent to my roofing pkg. But I'm still a bit leary about the thing leaking.
Is there a particular configuration ("S" channel, etc) that stops water, but lets air? I know they have some sort of screen to keep wasps and bugs at bay but water is a creapy critter that gets into minute cracks, and a ridge vent seems to give away 1" wide or more opening, and even with a "filter" to catch the water, it hinders low volume air flow.(Perhaps not to the extent I imagine)
I've been at Vance AFB, OK with fairly straight horizontal rains at times and might you also experiance the same at your place?
My other major concern is why my porch rafters come out 1/8 to 3/8" too short when I cut um to the exact length!!!
Have a blessed country day there, Pat!
roy
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Roy, Sorry to hear of your discomfort. I have never observed any water penetration from snow or rain and we sometimes get a bit of wind with each. My ridge vents are way wider than an inch closer to 2 or a tad more. If you are really anal about it there are ridge vent products that have articulated flaps that are blown closed by wind while the "other" side of the ridge vent remains open in the low pressure area to "draw" air out. We left a good gap at the ridge so the top of the "chimney" of the ventilated nail deck did not keep air from also being drawn out of the cathedral ceiling area of the garrage.
The nail deck has its chimney effect even when no wind is blowing but if there is a wind than the venturi effect at the ridge vent draws air from both the volume of the garage as well as adding a vacuum assist to the chimney effect. I have a 21 ft wide by 48 ft long shed attached to the side of the garage/shop. It connects at the 12 ft level. Under the shed roof where the eaves would be if there were eaves we cut slots in the OSB of the wall to admit air into the "chimneys." On the other side there is a continuous vented soffit at the 12 ft wall height and it is vented into the bottom of the chimneys on that side.
Even in a no wind situation the volume of the garage is getting air changes when the chimneys are drawing. I have a door with a half glass with screen in the wall between the shed and the garage. I have the glass open to allow air through the screen. Quite a draft goes through there when the roof is heated which shows how well the venturi principle is working. I intend to cut a larger (maybe 2x4 ft) hole in the wall between the shed and garage to promote more circulation through the garage. I'll put a "security" type louver in teh hole. In the worst weather I don't expect to get water through the louvers as they are under 21 ft of roof to the nearest rain entry point.
As regards the boards that are only 1/8 to 3/8 too short... just carefully cut them off again a few times (just a litle at a time untill you get it right. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Egon can explain the concept to you if you need more detail.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Yeah Pat,
I could glean quite a lot from Egon's woodworking experiance. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img] But, I figured out the problem with my rafters....It was my miter saw cuttinum too short!! Actually, I'm using metal ties and when I attach them to the bander board (ledger brd) I've not been compensating enough for them.
When nailed flat they are about 3/32 tck but when their middle is nailed to bander brd and wings wrapped around end of 2x6, they tend to hold the end out just a bit more than expected. But I' m now shaving a little off the top end of rafter which results in a more perfect fit of birds mouth to ridge cut.
With gambrel roof on my barn the sides are just over 12ft, I have a 10x51 porch roof growing out the west side of it. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I used 9ft 6x6 posts and bolted on 2x8 header (Boxed) and now installing the 2x6x12ft rafters 24ft OC. It'll have a good "chimney" space at the wall/porch roof junction and for short term I'll put up screen material to keep out critters, and later on, put in the double rafter, ridged foam and stuff.
Even now, when I'm attaching the porch rafters to the side wall, I can feel a really good breeze flowing out spaces between the rafters across the loft floor.
Continuing on underside of porch roof deck and under barn roof deck, I'll install foil-backed ridged foam to inside of the low roof rafters forming chimney up over the 8ft knee wall (storage area) into the attic space above the loft room. As you point out, Pat, the thermal efficiency of heated air moving through, coupled with venturi effect drawing on these chimneys per ridge vent should create excellent air exchange/hr.
Later on when we screen in the porch (wife wants it), I'd like to be able to "winterize" it. Also might could vent the wood shop air to these chimneys as long as I don't pull in small dust particles which would eventually build up and cause fire hazard.
Wonder if the thermal draft in these chimneys might be ample to drive a wind turbine generator? [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
Have a blessed day, Pat.
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
RoyPat, Another consideration as regards the foil backed rigid foam besides installing it with the foil towards the roof is that it accumulates dust and over time you can lose considerable performance. If you get enough wind maybe it will self clean or every couple years you can spray some kittens with "End Dust" and turn them loose up there.
As regards the wind driven turbine(s)... Yup, you could probably build some that would work within your parameters but the useful output might be a bit lower than you might hope for. You might be able to charge a battery enough to light up a some low power LED night lights or something like that. Maybe you could settle for a wind chime in the venturi or a bell with its clapper attached to a "sail" so above a threshold speed it would ring. That would announce when the system was working.
I agree about preventing unfiltered air from a woodworking operation getting sucked up into the "venturi." Except for that, I'd think you could harness the available moving air column to suck the hot air off the ceiling level of your shop. Just install some grills in the ceiling and use ducts to tap into the cavities with the air currents. Think Bernoulli!
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Oooooooooh, man, now let's see.....The Bernoulli principle...doesn't that mean you can tell how fast ye ol' "Bern" will travel if "oulli" the sluice gate were in the open position, the flow is steady and the angle is straight? I really didn't have a clue, Pat, but I looked it up and learned something new! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] (http://www.imnoeng.com/Flow/bernoulli.htm)
Concerning your idea of "installing some grills in the ceiling and use ducs to tap into the cavities..." I'm kinda reluctant to try that application. I'm not sure if I have the desire to cook my burgers upside down on the ceiling and I never could keep my ducs lined up so think I best just stick to installin vents through the shop ceiling into the attic space. That way if a duc...or for that matter a "end-dusted Kat" trys to go that way I'll be more likely to track um' if their viscous effects are more then the dust already in there.
All seriuosness aside, Pat, I may try something different in the wood shop. My I-joists are on 16"OC and wanting to have flush-mounted light fixtures, I'll need to use 1 or 2 bulb light fixtures (something that fits between the joists) perhaps a series of 4ft units. I may install a "U" shaped panel wedged between the joists to serve as a ceiling cover, a sound deadener, and a means by which to effect a funnel for air moving to and through ceiling vents. The vents could be attached to the air exchanger/filter to help maintain low airborne dust particles. Not sure how or if this would work, or what material to use but was just sorta thinking outload. If smooth like sheet metal it might bounce noise rather then absorb, and a textured surface might catch and hold too much particulate matter. At any rate I'm pressing in to the discharge of expanding my barn roof perimeter, one rafter at a time.. As they say "onward" and "upward"..............
Have a blessed OK country day, Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
RoyPat, Don't think me finicky but I think the plural of duc is dux!!!
My shop ceiling is 10 ft. I have lights suspended just a bit below the ceiling. I also have A/C ducts suspended below the ceiling and aspire to have dust collection ducts suspended below the ceiling. The tops of the A/C ducts are about 7 inches below the ceiling to leave room for the dust ducts.
The lights have 8 ft monopole fluoprescent tubes (small diameter new fangled size) in three rows of three in a row. During the day I rarely use them but if you turn them all on it lights the place up like an operating theater... quite intense.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Pat wrote: </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If you get enough wind maybe it will self clean or every couple years you can spray some kittens with "End Dust" and turn them loose up there.
[/ QUOTE ]
ManOMan, I laughed so hard I pooted.
Dick
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Hey Pat. Well I L B, M R dux!! And I learned a long time ago to watch um fly over with my mouth shut....especially geese!!
My shop ceiling is 10-9 (plus the 14" I-joist space to install light fixtures). I'll be using 8 footers (also with F8 bulbs) they seem to be more energy effecient then two 4 footers.
My goal is to end with a flush mount for anything I put in/on the ceiling, and not create dust collectors like I presently have in my garage, suspended light fixtures with no lenses so my sawdust (fine sanding dust) gets very heavy at times on the bulbs and the fixture tops. I'm not that picky to keep them dust free, but I'ld like to start the new shop with a more effective dust cleaning venture. The 14" joist space should be plenty room for lights, lites, ducts, ducs or dux (or the "Louziana" style with Doux).
A couple articles I've read say the energy saver-economy lights are not really economical, as they use more energy while producing less light. Like back in the 80's when Mfgrs' "detuned" the carburated engines to meet new EPA standards. But depending where I place saws, jointer, and other equipment and benches, I plan to use 6 rows of two fixtures in 17x26 shop.
But the barn/shop/garage is coming right along. I finished raftering the 10x51 porch and will be decking it in the next few days whenever the rain stops. It's slow going when all I have is late evenings and partial weekends, but I'll get there. If you like to play in the dirt, swing a hammer, make sawdust and sweat, come on out !!! Got plenty camper space!! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Have a blessed OK day , Pat
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
ROYPAT, I'm not sure which energy saver lights you got the "dirt" on but if you look at all costs, you'll find some of the lights out perform others in delivered illumination per dollar. Costs to include the fixture, lamp, installation, and operating costs (electricity and lamp replacement.)
I prefer electronic ballasts and only have a couple small fixtures with transformer ballasts and these won't get realy long run times (above pantrility room sink.) Oh... pantrility... pantry-utility room.
Maybe one day I'll regret not having recessed my lighting, just not yet. I have three strings of fixtures approximately equaly dividing the 36 ft shop width. They are just a couple inches below the ceiling but I may opt to lower then another 5 inches to permit dust collection dux to hug the ceiling. I frequently do not turn the lights on as I have fairly good daylighting but lately wth the shorter days, early mornings are a bit dim (way to dark to operate equipment safely.) Still the center string lights the whole place really well. I sometimes use one of the side strings but rarely just turn everything on as it is quite a lot of light, more than needed by a margin. I haven't measured the intensity of the light at bench height but from experience I can promise you it well exceeds 100 fc (foot-candles.)
I used some really stout glue lam beams to break the 36 ft span into 3 each 12 ft spans to reduce the joist requirements as this is a two story shop and I wanted good floor strength upstairs. This has the joists running transverse to the long dimension of the shop. These "I" joists are running the "right" way to accomodate dust collection dux but I am trapped by the beams so I will run those dux exposed. Everything is trade-offs and everthing has some effect on other things (at least a little domino effect.) I may not have achieved the ultimate optimum solution but I think I got one that is good enough.
Now to go put some bisquits where I have used two pieces of material to make each shelf in a stack. Saved lots of material but ya gotta connect the pieces.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Pat,
I prefer the electronic ballasts as well. But of the two types, consumer and commercial, the commercial type provides the greater delivered illumination per dollar and the F8 ( or T8) 1" dia. bulb single contact, like what you're using is the preferred way for shop/ "pantrility" and the like. The greater the "color factor" of the lamp makes for greater illumination and quality of light...I think a CF 84 or 94 is a good range for my use.
I purchased several 4ft, 4 light flush mount "luminaires" (the fluorescent type light used practically everywhere) from our local Habitat for Humanity recycling outfit and was glad to get them for 12$ each. But when barn was framed I forgot the I-joists were at 16"OC ...can't use the fixtures unless I suspend them below the joists. Something said about preplanning........
In my job we require 100 ft candle illumination at bench level and as I age I find the extra light is required...Get tired of pullin splinters from my forehead and hoppin 'round on one foot.
So you have (3?) separate circuits for your lights? That's great for adjusting to the ambiant light. I plan to install 3x3 windows with sill 4ft from floor, giving appearance from outside a horse stall "look" and from inside provides the light at a height greater than working level. (I wanted to put them at 5ft level but "it just don't look right", says my better half, so I reckon later on if warranted, I'll put in 1x2 horiz. sliders about the 9ft level.
My inclosed part of barn is 39x51 and I used 40ft I-joists spanning from side to side (16"OC). I have a wall 3ft off center running end to end (perpendicular to the joists) which separates the garage from the shop areas. The lumber yard consult said wall wasn't actually needed with the 14" joists but
I needed a way to keep sawdust off the vehicles when housed. Also have a Model A Ford that's been callin' my name for several years now and didn't want sawdust all over the parts while assembling it. The wall helps strengthen the 26x51 loft floor.
When istalling my porch rafters, I butted them against a bander board on the barn wall.....while checking things out I discovered I have created a slight bottle-neck in the "chimney" effect we discussed a few days back. The 2x4 barn rafters don't hang out passed the walls' edge but maybe a couple inches; the bander board takes up 1 1/2 " so the air draw for the chimneys will have a small "hump" to crawl over. Perhaps I can use aluminum flashing material to smooth out the passage through this neck. That pre-planning thing again...I had originally planned to face nail the porch rafters to side of roof rafters but again, changed plans mid-stream and created another domino affect. In your words, "I may not have acheived optimum solution", but it will have to do.
7/16 OSB price is 8.99/sht so while I can I best get for the porch before price follows petrol. (Wholesale prices up 2% this week.)
Have a blessed OK day, my friend!
roy
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
ROYPAT, I may have earlier mispoke regarding the shop lights. Anyway, what I have is 3 separate switched strings of dual 8 footers of two sets end to end for a total of a dozen tubes. I also have another separate twin 8ft with a circuline off to one side to illuminate the "pizza slice" where the house and shop joint together with the shop off axis by 45 degrees. The other half of the bld is the 24x36 ft 3 bay garage which is adequatley illuminated with just two double 8' fixtures running in the 24 ft direction (parallel to the roof ridge.) More than enough light for a parking structure by a good margin. The workshop on the other hand is nearly as well lit as an operating theater when all the lights are switched on. I also have individual task lights for some of the tools like grinders, drill presses, and such. Lowe's had Skill brand goosenecked lamps on sale at 25% of retail so I bought several.
I prefer a higher CRI and don't really care for warm or cool white tubes. Had to buy by the case to get T-8 with a high CRI.
I have some nice 2'x2' mercury vapor lights in my old shop but will not be putting them in the new shop. I might mount them in the tractor shed to illuminate the graveled approach to the 21x48 shed on the side of the shop/garage in case I should ever do anything ouit there at night. I have plenty of light under the shed roof (more twin T-8 fixtures spec'd for cold weather starting) but nothing for the approach area.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Shop lighting is no problem for those of us with very small shops. One of the new flourescent 100 watt bulbs for inside and for the working area the sun does well but evening work depends on the cloud cover and phase of the moon! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Egon
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, As you built, did you remember to create a motorhome/vacation trailer "hardstand" so you can have guests park , hookup, and stay awhile? You need water, sewer, both 30A and 50 A plug-ins, and of course telephone and internet. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Just to satisfy my curiosity, what's the advantage of 8' florescent tubes over the 4' ones? I am in the process of trying to buy a little house that has neat a little 21' x 25' shop with two rows of 4' florescent lights. Current owner was obviously a woodworker. The attached picture was taken before he finished moving out.
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
I am in the dark(pun intended) when talking about the lights used in my shop. The electrican called them High Energy, and they were rather expensive,compared to the other shop lights I've had. I am well pleased with them. They are 8' double bulb and each bulb is about 1" in diameter. As you can see in the photo, I don't have the ceiling painted yet, and with only 2 of the 4 lights on it is very bright in the shop. I never knew that a few bucks more in lighting would make that much difference, but I am glad I did. Later, Nat
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Bird, It is kind of like the "what is the best tool?", it depends! There are advantages to 4 ft tubes in that you can fit them in smaller spaces and distribute them in ways the 8 footers won't work. I haven't worked professionally in lighting since 1984 and then for only a year but the way I recall it there are a couple advantages. If memory serves, you can get more light for your $ with the longer tubes and for equivalent quality fixtures you should save a few bucks (fewer ballasts, sockets, etc.) In larger commercial applications there are considerations for the number of tubes to replace, i.e. a maint guy will make fewer trips up and down the ladder hence covering more square feet of real estate in a day.
In a case like yours it is very unlikely that you would break even if you changed to 8 footers unless you were going to change out the old fixtures for some other reason like loud, leaking, hot, or otherwise unwanted ballasts or they are obsolete units with twist lock starters or other reason. If what you have are working well and are in good shape you would have little incentive to swap them out. In large commercial installations where there is economy of scale changing to more cost effective lighting can have a decent payback.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Thanks, Pat. I just wondered why one over the other. The little house that it appears we're probably going to buy has lots of 4' tubes in that 21' x 25 shop, but the garage has 8' tubes. Both are working well.
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Bird, Hope you get moved in before the weather turns cold and also that you enjoy your new shop. Looks nice! If any fixtures ever act up or need replacing then shop for energy efficient units with solid state ballasts. Unless your electricity cost goes way up there is likely not enough savings to warrant taking out a working fluorescent fixture to replace it with a newer one. You can replace the old 40 Watt tubes with (I think) the new 32 Watt tubes for a savings i operating costs and hardly a loss of illumination. If you do replae the tubes as they fail or otherwise, replace them in pairs.
Another piece of info is that fluorescent tubes are and should be candidates for replacement BEFORE they "burn out" as their light output will degrade with time and they keep taking full power. At some point you aren't getting nearly what you are paying for and shold relamp with new tubes. Dying tubes can be harder on a ballast than a good tube which gives more motivation to change out old tubes. I personally hate it when lights flicker and change tubes if they start acting out.
If the new shop is or will be air conditioned that gives more impetus to having electronic ballasts as all the waste heat is electricity wasted and then you pay more for electricity to take the heat out with an A/C unit.
In some clever installations the air around the fluorescent fixtures is gently exhausted to remove the heat from the space at low cost rather than paying to have the A/C remove it.
NOTE TO ROYPAT... If you use flush mounted fluorescent fixtures you can vent the top side of the fixtures to elliminate the waste heat from the space, a boon in summer.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Hope you get moved in before the weather turns cold
[/ QUOTE ]
Pat, nothing's ever for sure; at least until closing, but it appears that will happen the middle of next month and we'll be moving before September is over, so I'm sure not worried about cold; just hope it ain't too hot. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
That shop isn't air-conditioned right now, and probably won't be, but I was actually surprised at how cool it was when I went in there about noon yesterday, so it must be pretty well insulated. However, it has two windows and I might decide to put in a window unit someday.
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Bird, If it was close to comfortable maybe some more insulation and or improved attic ventilation is in order. That could reduce the size of the window unit needed and how often you need to run it.
My new shop (ground floor) is shaded by the second story above and a 21 ft wide shed on much of the south side.
It does have a southwest facing window and as the sun begins to get lower in its arc across the sky as the days shorten there is more direct solar gain during part of the afternoon. It isn't too bad yet and I can always add solar film or shades or, ... if I determine it is too much. Later in the afternoon the sun goes behind the sun porch and leaves the shop alone so it is just a period in the mid afternoon that might develop into a concern. I have a southeast facing door with half glass but it is under the shed roof and gets no direct sun. There is a full glass door and two large windows on the northeast side of the shop (it runs NE by SW on the main axis, roof ridge) but they don't get much solar gain as the sun is pretty much getting down into the trees when low enough to get under the porch roof.
Of possible interest to you, Bird, is the Government's tightening up on the minimum SEER ratings of A/C units. Industry has been making some advances in the practical application of A/C technology (partly through Government regulation and partly due to consumer concern with rising costs.) At any rate, if you shop carefully, looking for the lowest lifecycle cost you can get pretty good equipment now. One of my pet peeves is companies that try to sell folks the cheapest unit to buy (in its class/size) rather than the cheapest unit to own... NOT THE SAME THING. Buying a Copeland scroll compressor unit with the latest refrigerant may have higher initial cost but over say a 5 year period totals up less than a cheaper unit when you consider operating costs. Buy the highest SEER rating you can find in a name brand with a good warranty.
One of the last purchases I made at work prior to retiring was a pair of the largest window units Sears sold. They were pretty good stuff. The fan blowing over the condensor picked up the condensate water and splashed it into the air stream going through the condensor. This used evaporative cooling to help cool the hot coils and boosted the performance.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Pat, the place I think I'm buying is on the west side of a street that's apparently oriented due north and south. The shop only has walk doors, east end which is the 21' wide breezeway and 12' from the back door of the house and west end. One window on the north side and one on the south side. Lots of 120v outlets in all four walls plus several in the ceiling. But there's also three 240v outlets, including one under that north window. It's been awhile (1972) since I had any window units myself, but it wouldn't be much work at all to install one.
The current owner of the place has already moved to Austin, so I haven't met him, but he was obviously pretty much into woodworking, and must have like cedar. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] I think the cabinets across the front wall of the garage, shown above, will be right handy, too. It's too bad he didn't keep the garage floor as clean as he did inside the house and the shop. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Bird, Sounds good to me. I never had a decent shop befor and no experience planning one out so I took a WAG and didn't do too bad. I have 3 different styles of 240VAC outlets under the shed roof, each on its own breaker, a 20, a 30, and a 50. There are so many different ones available.
I have one uninstalled 240 VAC outlet inside the shop for a corner I picked for welding. If I need 240VAC elsewhere I will run it overhead, possibly along the not yet installed dust collection ducts.
For weeds [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] your shop walls don't look too bad and I am envious of the cabinets. To date I have zero wall storage and no decent workbench, just a 4x8 sheet of tongue and grove flooring on a couple saw horses.
I bought a couple books about workstations and storage for woodshops. Has modifiable plans for building all the units depicted. I hope to be able to get started soon or by cold weather at least.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
NOTE TO ROYPAT...
Hey Pat, Did you buy case of T8s from Lowes, Home Depot or a local specialist? I'll be in the market for fixtures and lamps here in a couple weeks/months and would like the cheaper source. May check internet...
Last year I replace "one" 8ft lamp in a dual fixture. In about 6 months the new lamp was actually flaming inside one end, which took out the whole fixture. I shoulda replaced in pairs as I now know is best way.
I also lean toward the higher CRI lamps. I have cool wht in my garage and that's cool for parked cars, not so cool when working with wood, but I concur with Egon, the best light is what the good Lord gives us. Only at times it is too bright, too hot or in the wrong place at the right time. That's one reason I built the 10x51 porch off the shop side of barn, to benefit from natural light and ventilation.
Also great idea Pat, about top venting the flush-mounted fixtures. The space for the fixtures is approx. 14" box so should have enough "top" room to draw off with vent. However, I'll need to provide some type of insulation for the loft floor so perhaps I could cut to fit ridged foam panels....Hmm, I'll need to ponder this a bit. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I finished installing porch rafters, and measuring space at porch/barn rafter junction I have approx. 2" air space for chimney draw, but it shouldn't be a problem. Tomorrow, I'll get the porch sheathing nailed on and hopeful the roofer will get things dry in next few days.
Have a blessed OK weekend, Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
roy
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Roy, My electricians ordered my 8 ft T8 lamps and the box has plenty of spares left. What??? You used those wonderful COOL WHITE lamps in the garage! Low pressure sodium would be good enough for a parked car... if you don't mind the "slight" delay in coming up to a useable intensity.
Venting luminaires to keep their heat out of the A/C equation is a standard energy efficiency item in INFORMED instalations.
Some daylight engineering collects the natural sunlight and distributes it where needed. Also, dimable fluorescent ballast technology is way better now and many installations use photoreceptor controls to regulate delivered illumination. Where there is ample daylighting fixtures will turn off. Where there is some natural light but not enough, the fluorescents make up the difference. The controller has a fairly slow time response so the lights aren't visibly quickly ramping up and down with every passing cloud. A lighting engineer adjusts the controller for your required foot candles on your tables or desks and you get at least that much (natural light may exceed your setpoint.) Interior spaces and areas of daylit rooms further from the windows automatically ramp up as required to get the desired illumination.
This automatic system also compensates for aging of the lamps, to a degree. Overall cost efficiency is improved if lamps are changed out before they have to be driven really hard to make enough light. Most folks change tubes when they flicker really bad or "go out" but they are usually well beyond their useful economical life before thay completely die. Burning out ballasts by running lamps till they die is not economical.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Hey Pat,
Here's ashot of my barn project., putting last piece on the porch roof Sat. I'm waiting on the roofer to get the curly stuff off and put down something that will keep interior dry.
Gotta roll out, Have a blessed OK day, Pat,
roy
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Roy, How about an end shot shoing the gambrel roof line?
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Hey Pat, I'llrummage through the many disks to find those pics. and try to post on Fri.(not in shop tomorrow)
This pic didn't turn out too good as the porch is on the west side and 4pm shadows blk out the underside. The curly stuff on the roof was a side benefit from my framers'. Lucky me through the several storms and recent hurricane......
The roofer, coming next week will use some stuff called "Titanium", which is much lighter then the roofing felt (10sq roll weighs 4 lbs) and a superior material. Once I get dried-in I'll spray the interior with bleech solution to kill any mold growth from water soaking.
Have a blessed OK day, Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
roy
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
An OK side view. How about an end view?
By the way... had you been having trouble with birds causing damage to the work in progress? maybe there is an alternate explanation for the SCARECROW on the roof.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
LOL!!! Nawww, Pat that ol' thing up there ain't for crows. Itsfur skunks!! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Its an amonia gun. Once they smell and get a taste of amonia, they give up on sharin' their odiferousness and just run off!!! The scary thing up there is an improvement plan for the neighborhood but it fell through from a lack of interest. (I actually ran a skunk family out of my old barn using amonia in a water gun....)
Here's another look at my current project. Say, it looked fairly good before the wind/rain! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
the rafter overhang above the garage doors doesn't have the proper top plate /birds mouth construction atop the wall (thanks to my professional framers) so my challenge if I chose to take it is reworking um. Completed the other side (porch) easily from outside as there was no overhang and the sheathing didn't come all way to end of rafters, but this side is best reached from inside with the ol' sawzall.
I started out planning to site build my trusses using plan from (Barnplans.com) but the construction expense with 2x8s and 1/2" plywood gussets led me to purchase prebuilt trusses. They have a 3-12 pitch lower cord which gives nice cathedrel affect to the ceiling. Peak is about 11'-6". It opens the 26x50 loft room a bit.
The 30x40 barn in back ground will be torn down, reusing some material in the new.
Have a blessed OK day, Pat.
Roy
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[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Guys I want to thank you for all your responses !!!
1680 views and 80 responses (posts) [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]
Of course the topic has kind of drifted to overhead doors and lighting, but it all falls under different ideas for a shop and I like this [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I have another question ..?
What about a cathideral type dormer in the center of the roof ?
What I am discribing is lets say a 4' x 4' ( maybe smaller ) open dormer that will be open to the outside... Like a bell tower, but designed not to let the rain in.
Now a exhaust fan could be used or just let physics do its thing.. heat rises right ?
Now.... at the base of this structure... inside the shop, make and install a pivoting metal flap to seal off the winter weather, like a large damper that could be controlled with a pair or small chain or ropes ???
Now think... you would have a place to put your weather vain as well, on top of the dormer [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Handy, I think you may be trying to describe a cupola which I was going to recommend. I don't think you need manual controls for the venting. Consider a 4 sided box with a roof over it with decent overhang. Each of the walls contains a vent with cover(s) that can only open outward. Any facing into the prevailing wind will be held closed by that wind but any on the downwind side(s) will be sucked open by the negative pressure. The structure's hot air will have risen and be waiting at the top to be drawn off when ever there is a breeze.
If you get into the engineering of the vents a bit, you can design them to be partially balanced like the elevator of a light plane. In addition to this partial balance, you design the louver/flap to normally hang partially open. Light rain in the absence of wind will run off the steep slope of the louver. If there is enough wind to worry about precipitation getting inside, the louver will be blown shut on the upwind side and open on the downwind side(s.)
By having the louvers hang slightly open in a no wind condition you allow hot air to escape through the "chimney" effect.
A good sized cupola will not only ventilate the structure well it will add something positive to the looks of the structure. Turbine vents work OK but are butt ugly, especially when compared to a cupola.
If a cupola is installed (or any other roof penetration), you need to pay attention to the flashing detail
I would recommend "gable end vents" at both ends. These could be disguised as "hay mow" doors and lend authentic looking decoration but offer additional practical ventilation. If desired, either or both could be operable doors as well as vents.
Clerestory windows facing the north side offer additional FREE lighting with much less chance of damage from hail or leaking than skylights. They would give a lot of natural light withoug heat gain as there is no direct solar gain from this source. They can be made operable and serve as vents too, but not easily automated, easily remoted, but not automated.
I suppose my "SECRET" is out now... I like natural daylight in my buildings but without traditional skylights. If there are any dark corners left after construction, stick in some solar tubes.
I can't easily tell just how close the trees are to the building but would be concerned as regards roots vs the foundation and leaves and limbs vs roof and gutters (if any.) If you don't have a good grade slope away from the walls past the dripline and well away from the structure then in the long run the building would profit from gutters. Preemptive limb pruning of limbs that are likely to cause problems later would be far better than waiting till there is a problem to prune away. This will let the tree expend its energy on limbs that won't be cut off and it will grow better and be more healthy.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
I agree Handy, what you described sounds like a cupola, Pat mentioned. It's a really good way to vent the building and good place to hang a weather vane as well. There are several places on web for prefab cupolas and some may have the vent louvers as Pat describes, unless you're set on shaping the air-foil louvers yourself! Could turn into quite a project [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I can't easily tell just how close the trees are to the building"
There's probably 20-25 ft between barn and trees, can park two large vehicles side by and still plenty room. These are maple species that don't grow extreemly fast so I expect worse case will be leaves in the fall. Will be several decades before the branches venture close enough for pruning. (we have some pruning going on as we speak ....the plum trees are ripening and we have yet to harvest them) Anyhow, out here we let the wind carry the leaves where ever.
I have more problems with the white pine needles in the house gutters then with any of the other tree leaves. (norway and scarlet maple, secamore, tulip poplar, river oak and white oak)
But I plan to install gutters on the shop/barn. I'd like to use a different style of hanger and not use the long gutter spikes. If I'm not mistaken there is a style that fits under the roofing material which seems to me a better way. When stationed in rural England in early 80's I thought the brick houses (cc 1936) looked neat having no exposed down spouts and gutters. Gutters were 'hidden' within the roof edge trim and down spouts formed in the walls were plumbed underground with cleanout traps.
I now sport a nearly complete porch on the barn. I installed angle braces to the posts (mortise and tenon joints at the posts and bolted) and fascia board. Roofing metal delivered yesterday so I should be dry in short order. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Have a blessed day,
roy
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Re: A different Idea for a shop:
Roy, Let me gently differ with you for a momemt as regards the "intense design and fabrication" project for the automatic louvers/shutters I mentioned. 'Taint so. Plain louver/flaps of light ga material hanging loosely down by gravity will be held closed by wind on upwind side and will be sucked open by negative pressure on downwind side and are dead simple to build.
If you want to invest a bit of tinker time you can fashion them such that they are slightly open in no wind conditions. When slightly open the overlapping (like fish scales) pieces shed rain that is vertical or nearly so but still allow for rising warm air to get out. If the wind picks up or gusts the side in danger of having rain get in closes under the pressure of the wind.
As regards pruning now... Even though it may be decades before the trees have limbs that annoy you, a little thought now would let you prune the potential problems and not let the tree WASTE decades of resources building limbs to be removed. The resources saved by early pruning will be invested in limbs that you do want.
Built in gutters and downspouts... You sure know how to hurt a guy. Due to my inexperience and lack of receipt of wise council built in downspouts were not thought of untill after it was too late [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] ...AGRGHHH... I am draining downspouts in burried lines and the gutters are such a good match for the trim color they are virtually invisible but still built-ins would be so much neater.
RURAL ENGLAND... Ever get to Petersburrow (sp?) next to last stop on train from London to Portsmouth (last stop.) There is a British Royal Navy installation out in the rural countryside amid thatched roof cottages, narrow stone fence lined lanes, and sheep pasturage. It is H.M.S. Mercury. I spent the day there once getting a progress report and demo from a British contractor who was developing an adjunct to SSIXS (Satellite to Submarine Information eXchange System) a variant of which we sold to the Brits. I was the guy in charge of the US version of that software system and was there for the annual upgrade distribution and training session for their operators who communicated with the Brit's subs.
Please accept my belated thanks to all US taxpayers (and the Brits) who made my travels possible.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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"tain't so."
Hey Pat, your point well recieved. I had vision of Mr. Handy tinkering long hours in his shop with apron, bill-cap, sleeves rolled up, and single bowl-shaped reflector /incandescent lamp overhead, dust in air seen hazily only under the light canopy, and his bench scattered with an array of prototype louvers, metal shavings and clippings pushed back, wood scraps here and there, wire coil bird-nested around heel of the anvil. I like your simplicity of the project.
Pruning trees isn't one of those things I hit with gusto but this fall my plans will include shaping the trees near the barn. I have found my sawzaw does a fairly good job on branches too large for pruning snips, and the bowsaw handles larger ones quite well. And I agree a bit of pre-planning now will produce greater benefit in tree growth later.
Petersborrow (sp) Yes I've been through there couple times and I'm sure it was like my stompin' grounds about an hour west. I saw my first steam powered tractor/plow near Petersborrow (sp). They had the main steam engine stationary on one side of field with one-row plow attachment pulled along with wire rope...was a sight to see.
All my military transactions were at Upper Heyford, but I was based at RAF Little Rissington and surrounding villages were Borton-On-The Water, Fairford, Burford, Swindon only an hour from Welch border. I was part of a site development team to design a military 500 bed contingency hospital. We developed plans for and created site for 1500 beds. It was a three year project but from lack of use (I guess) it took AF stand down around Desert Shield/Storm in early 90's. But The English Cotswolds are The prettiest countryside I've seen.
There is a web site for RAF LIttle Rissington air base, but I've not visited it in couple years. Outside of the eight member site team, the Americans housed there were an extension from RAF Fairford, and the draw down after DS they closed RAFLR and made it a civilan area. So many fond memories there I could write for years. In an old book store in an obscure, quaint village, I purchased a reprint copy of Isaac Waltons' "The Art of Fishing", a real deal for 4 lbs, about $6 US. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
I think the atch pic is from this mornings shot. Porch is on west side so it's shadowed but non-the-less an overall shot of the barn.
Have a blessed OK day!! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
roy
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Another shot . [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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I don't know about you guys.... LOL
Has anyone ever heard of the K.I.S.S method ? [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
I was thinking of more of a hood that extends below the top of the edge with wire screen to keep the critters out.
This would easily keep the weather out and allow plenty of ventalation.
Simple clean looking and functional.