Toilets in unheated spaces.

Like lots of rural folks, I have a toilet in my shop bld. As the shop is NOT heated when unoccupied I have had partial freeze ups where water in the tank and bowl has skinned over with ice pretty good but not frozen solid (yet). I have protected all my exposed plumbing runs with thermostatically controlled heater tape and insulation but had concerns for the toilet.

Here is the solution I came up with to share here:

Put a piece of copper tubing (or other good conductor of heat) in the water with a fair section sticking up in the air. Put heater tape on the part up in the air. My tank has dips in the top in the back where a bent piece of tubing can be routed so you can have the heater hooked up AND the tank lid in place. I didn't find any heater tapes approved for imersion, hence the tubing solution.

I expect that this will prevent bursting of the fixture in a long cold snap (if the power stays on)

I'm open to suggestions if there is a simpler or better way.

Patrick

If the fixture is not going to be used for a while, use RV anitfreeze in the tank and bowl.

I have not needed to solve this problem but here are a couple of ideas:

You can get stock tank heaters at Tractor Supply made to keep watering tanks for livestock from freezing.

I have seen coffee cup heaters in various catalogs in the past. These are small heating elements that you put into a cup of water then plug them in and they heat the water to make it ready for instant coffee. If you put one in the tank and one in the bowl and put them on timers you could probably keep the water from freexing.

Now that you've kept the water from freezing, you might need one of these to keep your - from freezing. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]


Just had another thought. How about an Aquarium heater ?

Only problem with RV antifreeze is that the stuff they sell around here is alcohol based and the alcohol can evaporate by the time winter is over. I usually use one of the environmentally friendly (notice I didn't mention what it does to the wallet), antifreezes like Sierra. Of course, that only works for traps and tanks. Pipes need to be drained and blown out with an air compressor.

SHF

Could you make a small, insulated outhouse around it? Heat with a 100 watt bulb placed down low and a thermostat.

What about your pipes? I'd guess that they'd freeze before your tank/bowl would.

I have RV antifreeze and will be using it in my RV and my pressure washer and my pasture sprayer pump, etc. But... I use the toilet in the shop whenever the need arrises and prefer the thermostatic switched heater strip on a scrap of copper tubing. I would use 40-100 gal of antifreeze in a winter.

Pat

Most of those heaters are way oversized and or not thermostatically controlled. I thought of doing my own thermostat on a bird bath heater but all of the DIY solutions other that the heater tape cost more, took a lot more fussing, or had other negatives associated.

Pat

pbenven, Sorry, I thought I mentioned putting heater tape on all the exposed plumbing.

The toilet is in a bathroom with a util sink etc. It is easier/cheaper to use a heater tape that comes with a thermostat than to just run a 100 watt bulb all the time or put it on a thermostat. I have a BIG reflector lamp with a heat lamp bulb in it for when you have to tarry in the frigid environs for more than a few seconds.

Got our first light dusting of snow today. Melts on contact with the ground as the earth is still too warm to get an accumulation. Currently 34F and will warm up a mite in a few days. Temporary reprieve, it will get white later. If not by Christmas, then later.

Pat

Sorry, Pat - only skimmed the original post and didn't notice your point about the exposed plumbing/thermo-tape.

<font color="blue">...if there is a simpler or better way</font color>

Guess there isn't.

Could you wrap the heat tape around the outside of the tank? Once the tank has warmed up, it will be able to keep the water warm. If you wish, you could wrap a fiberglass batt around the tank to reduce the energy rerquired.

How about an electric baseboard heater set to 45 or 50 degrees? No need for the er "heated seat:" WVBill was kind enough to point out.

Another option is to let it freeze, but to put an "expansion joint" in the bowl &amp; tank. A small 16 oz plastic soda bottle with a little wieght in it so it is 75% submerged. When the water freezes, the bottle will crush &amp; hopefully the commode won't crack. This type of system is used in pool skimmers to winterize them. The bigger bottle you can fit in there, the deeper freeze it will hold up to.

Toilets in unheated places...

Thats what we call an outhouse here in West Virginia.... [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

I don't know if I'd use any automotive antifreeze that will end up in a sewer system or a septic. If I remember correctly, propylene glycol, which is the antifreeze used in Sierra, is just as poisonous as ethylene glycol antifreeze. It just tastes nasty so animals won't drink it like they will drink ethylene glycol.

Gary, In my small drafty uninsulated metal siding well house, last winter I did what you are suggesting and it works good. I wrapped some heater tape around my pressure tank and covered it with insulation. In the shop's bathroom as I have already implemented the scrap copper/heater tape solution, I could take 1/2 of your suggestion and put some insulation around the tank. If this were out in the wind, that would really be a good thing but inside the shop the insulation would not make such a dramc difference. The delta T is not too big with a control temp of
38 F. I don't think inhsulaltion would save enough electricity to pay for the materials and hassle of installation. Using heater tape with 12-15 watt consumption with a thermostat so it only runs as required is pretty thrifty and it would be easy to spend more in time materials enhancing it than the enhancements would save.

Of course, if this were Minot ND and the shop's bathroom was drafty, insulalting the tank over the heater tape would be a great idea and could make the difference between success and a broken tank.

Pat (NOT IN ND)

Nix the heater in a shop that is occupied a low percent of the time but the plastic bottle idea is great! That is a real elegant solution! It isn't applicable to my situation but that doesn't detract from its being a neat and clever idea.

I would find it hard to flush the toilet with the water in the tank frozen. If I didn't need thte toilet to operate, I could just turn off its service valve and drain it. If I wasn't so lazy I could do that between uses but might get a complaint from my wife about privation.

Pat

KooKooKachoo

Please, next time light a couple matches before you leave!

Pat

<font color="blue"> I would find it hard to flush the toilet with the water in the tank frozen. If I didn't need the toilet to operate </font color>

What you want to use the toilet? I thought we were simply protecting it from freezing [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] Ah well, have to go to rev B on that idea. You may want to conisder adding the bottle to the tank as a fail safe. Only costs you $.05 for the bottle redemtion in case the heat pipe breaks. Plus saves 1/2 cup of water per flush [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Pat, that sounds like one major problem. Unfortunately, not an easy one to solve. Your heater placed in the tank will keep the tank from freezing, but won't help the bowl. Only way to extent the protection to the bowl, is to reset the float level in the tank so that a little water is always running into the bowl.

The plastic soda bottle in the tank and bown will fail on two counts. 1st, it won't protect the trap at the bottom of the bowl. 2nd, and most important, when nature calls, and you need to pull a bottle out of the frozen bowl, you're still left with a frozen bowl, and well, the ummm, the operation of said frozen bowl won't quite be up to expectations.

Heating the bathroom as a whole is probably the safest method, but like the heat tape, not the cheapest. My official suggestion, (based on 20 years of experience), a chemical toilet for the winter months.

How about fixing the toilet so that it leaks a little, constantly running a little bit of water into the tank and into the bowl and then out. Will keep it from freezing and can't get more low maintenance and low tech than that! [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Hey, how about a small hot water tank with a ball valve between the tank and the toilet? When you gotta go, just open the ball valve so the toilet fills. Once it fills, shut the valve. Flush and the toilet is empty again. I'n not sure how low you can set an electric water heater, but you wouldn't need anything more than the minimum.

Of course the problem now moves to insulating the water tank, but I don't think that would be very difficult. Another valve to empty the line would probably be a good idea too.

May not be the most cost efficient way, but you could use submersible fish aquarium tank heaters. You could get something like a 15 watt that is designed for 10 gallon aquariums and turn it down to its lowest level. Could have one in the tank and one in the bowl itself. Would still allow the tank to function as normal - but would probably want to remove the one from the bowl prior to ...... uh .... use. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Pat:
Your idea using the copper tubing would be very effective.Perhaps fill it with a very low slump concrete product after the heat tape is installed. This will aid in the transfer of heat by eliminating the air boundary layer.

Another concept may be to apply heat tape to the outside of the bowl and tank, then build a form around them and fill it with foamed in insulation. You could make this look quite nice. Use the heat tape that has the built in thermostat. I don't know what it is called but am sure it is available.

Now the final sugesstion would be a thunder pole placed outside with a surrounding tarp for privacy. Add some nice soft, fine dried grass for the final definative touch. The grass is definetly better than the other purchased products as there have been several cases out at the farm where nessesity required it's use.

Egon

jwstewar, Yet another good idea that I didn't think of yet. I guess I'm accomplishing about the same thing with my copper tubing. One piece is in the tank (exiting from a cut out on the rim in back so the tank lid still goes on) and another piece in the bowl, both sharing the same heater strip. Less than a foot of heater strip is "wasted" in the air between the two pieces of tubing.

The aquarium heaters I am familiar with are in glass tubes like a big cheap test tube so I guess I'm less likely to have an accident with my scrap tubing. I am ashamed that I didn't think of the aquarium heater. I once designed and built a blood sample incubator to replace an aquarium heater in an aquarium as a way to incubate (accurately control temp) of a blood sample prior to "reading" the sample in an ultra-violet spectrophotometer of my design. So I have seen aquarium heaters used for other than keeping fish happy AND STILL I DIDN"T RECALL IT!

Pat

You are correct in your comment about the aquarium heaters being a little fragile. I think you probably have the best solution given you still want it to be usable, but none the less at this point I think we are kinda "brainstorming" for ideas that would work. Hadn't seen that one suggested so I thought I would throw it out since rarely does it happen here or TBN that someone hasn't already suggested my thoughts.

Jim

jwstewar, Consider this: You posses/exhibit Extra Sensory Projection. Like "regular" ESP but in reverse. You powerfully project ideas which may be picked up by some others. The aquarium heater was a great suggestion and if I hadn't had the heater tape and scrap tubing I would have considered it. NO reason you can't take the "guts" out of the fragile glass container and put them in a more robust enclosure (minding the need for electrical insulaltion and isolation but avoiding thermal insulation and having a dandy solution.

Patrick (with 20 degrees F this morning but returning to at least the 50's soon.)

<font color="blue"> fill it with foamed in insulation </font color>

Spray foam? Would that work? I've been kind of afraid to use it near heat sources primarily beacuse I'm not sure of fire hazard, and due to concern about off gassing.

Heat tapes have had a pretty bad reputation around here over the years. For awhile they were touting a "heat cable" as a safer alternative to heat tapes. But, it's been a few years since I investigated, and things change so darn fast!

If I recall correctly, the primary problem with heat tapes was that people were improperly installing them, running them constantly and never checking to make sure the tape's insulation was still solid. I have seen a lot of old heat tapes still wrapping pipes in crawl spaces. Usually, the insulation has rotted to the point where it comes off if you touch it. Apparently the constant heat breaks down the insulation.

So, while I believe heat tape will work, I would want to leave a method to inspect/repair/replace the tape if necessary.

SHF

One question I thought of last night. I don't know the answer and don't know if any one else does or not. What would happen if your copper tube would slip or fall into the water up to the point where the heat tape were submersed. I'm assuming the insulation would hold up, but I don't know. Just a question or thought.

JWSTEWAR, I thought of that and the first two ideas that came to mind were: 1. bend the tube into a U shape with one side of the U in the water and the other in the air with thte heat tape on it and 2. use a tube long enough so that when it is in the tank as far/deep as it can go the heat tape is not wet. Both seemed OK but I went with the U bend which looked to be a better choice for my length of scrap copper tube and aesthetics.

You'd have to purposely put it in the water as it would have to defy gravity to get there on its own. A brief dunking should not be disastrous as some folks ignore the mfg warnings and imerse them. I didin't want to take a chance on a long term violation of the instructions.

Pat