Any theory that ignores the Third Law of Thermodynamics is a fallacy. That law makes it plain that you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game.
Any theory that ignores the Third Law of Thermodynamics is a fallacy. That law makes it plain that you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game.
A man's likely to mind his own business, if it is worth mindin' - Eric Hoffer
ric, Please share more detail regarding the water powered dune buggy, it would be an interesting topic. I'd be curious to hear where the power came from to charge the battery to make the electricity to run the inverter to put electricity through the transformer. DC won't transform so an inverter circuit is required with its inherent losses. In fact, in the real world, there are losses just about every time you transform energy from one form to another. This is known as entropy and ultimately will be responsible for the "heat death" of the universe.
Meanwhile, before that, due to the losses involved in burning hydrogen in an infernal combustion engine you never quite get out as mechjanical energy all the energy released by burning the hydrogen. The energy released by burning the hydrogen is never more than the energy required to "crack" the water and there are losses in every step. Losses as simple as electrical resistance in the wires going to the electrodes used in the electrolysis and in the alternator, and in the battery (putting it in and getting it out) and on and on and on.
Lets recap: If all of the output of the engine of the "dune buggy" was used just to spin the alternator, the electricity coming out of the alternator would be less than that required to "crack" the water required to fuel the engine. As soon as the battery ran down, the electrolysis rate would degenerate until the fuel produced was insufficient to idle the engine and it would die.
If entropy were "magically" repealed and all processes were somehow 100% efficient and lossless, including zero friction in the engine and 100% combustion efficiency in the antique engine, you would just have enough energy output to run the alternator just enough to make enough fuel to run the engine enough to run the alternator enough to make just enough fuel to run the engine just enough to run just the alternator just enough to ...
This alone would get you the Nobel prize for perpetual motion. Now if somehow you could make some of the steps more that 100% efficient you might generate enough power to also drive the car but not likely in the dunes. I have a VW dune buggy and I'd pay thousands of dollars for someone to make it run on hydrogen from water cracked by energy from its alternator even if it required a transformer so big it had to be pulled in a separate trailer.
Sorry but I don't buy this urban mythological foray into absudity. Was that meeting involving pocalolo, whacky tobacky, weed, canibis, grass, herbal delight, Mary Jane, Tai S--t, or what?
The non-mainstream commitment required at that meeting to produce your claimed results would be deep inhalation.
As to the circumstances surrounding the owner of the car, he may have finished his rehab and be ready to hit the streets due to a cost cutting/mainstreaming policy instituted by most mental institutions.
Old trucks? In '86 I drove a '64 Ford and sold it when I bought a '84 Ford in about '94. I now have a '61 VW, '89 Dakota and '97 Dodge Cumins turbo diesel 1 ton dually.
I don't recall giving economics as a motivation for buying a Prius. It may or may not have the economic leverage of a diesel VW but it will use less foreign oil than most alternatives and you allowed as how a certain commitment might be required to accomplish something you desire. I desire to use less foreign oil. I will do it while enjoying more luxury and a better ride than most alternatives. The battery is waranteed for 150,000 miles or 8 years so it isn't too scary. If Toyota chooses to "give" me a car to allow them to get big sales numbers and squeeze out the competition, fine. I'm sorry, what did you say your source of information wasn't regarding battery cost.
Hundreds of thousands of lemmings can't be wrong! There are 5-6 cash deposits down for every Prius delivered. Some folks who got on the waiting list in December may or may not get an '04 and if they hang in there could get an '05. Toyota is runing the original Prius line 24-7 and switched another line to Prius. Look for Toyota's Synergy system to be available soon lisc for use in a domestic car.
I should be so unfortunate as to build a product so widely wanted that I can't possibly make them fast enough to even get close to meeting demand. Yep, those crazy orientals, they give away a fine mid size car below cost on each unit but I guess they follow the example you set detailing the way the dune buggy works and make it up in volume!
For the Reader's Digest condensed version see Slamfire's post above!
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Only thing I would like to say is that great inventions and achievements have not been made by thinking inside the box. If that were the case we'd still be worried about walking off the edge of the earth and would never have flown or gone into space. Just because you don't see how it could work does not mean some genius in his garage didn't rewrite the physics books. We don't know one trillionth of the secrets out there.
Actually, I suggested you get your deposit back for the Prius based on your comments, but not on any specific content.
Cracking water was intended to do only two things, primarily a proof of concept that it could be done and nothing more, Certainly not a prelude to mass production in either associated business category, for profit or for giveaway. Given the primary goal the results were quite good, especially given the short turn around and the low cost. The dune buggy provided an easy vehicle to convert due to the ready access to the engine. The biggest issue that I recall was the separation of oxygen and hydrogen after the water was cracked. Once the engine started the process was fairly self sustaining. The second goal was realized when the results became a mobile resume, which eventually led to a job.
As for what you think about this... it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other, except they got it to work and you still haven't figured it out yet, although it sounds like you should have by now.
As for the Prius... well its doomed to join all the other gas/electric hybrids on the heap in the next few years when they are replaced by hydrogen fuel cells... you know, the technology that NASA uses quite successfully.
In the meantime, good luck with your Prius, although it may be tough getting the three of you in it at the same time....
Later
CoyboyDoc, Most endeavors can be placed in one of three categories (not unlike triage) doable, not doable, and unknown. The unknown are the most interesting and once investigated sufficienty might be accurately assigned to one of the other of the three categories.
I know there is "jury nulification" and various anomalies brought about by liberal courts but so far certain laws haven't been reversed. The laws of thermodynamics are in this category. It isn't an issue of "folding space", any off shoots of the GUT (Grand Unified Theory of everything) or cosmic STRINGS.
I doubt anything I say could convince you. There are lots of folks who believe perpetual motion is right around the corner.
I have an open mind as regards science and engineering. Some things are just patently absurd as a small magnet being able to reverse the direction of gravity and propel true believers into orbit.
If, in fact, any demonstration of what was claimed, was made to any properly credentialled body, it would have made a A SPLASH in the media that would have made the cold fusion fiasco or M. Jackson's child molestation press attention look like coverage of a 1st grade checker tournement. Nobel prizes have been awarded for a whole lot less significant achievment.
This hype ranks right up there with "magic pills" that when dropped into your gas tank allow you to run your car on ordinary tap water.
I genuinely wish it were true. It would be a fantastic boon to civilization. It could lay a foundation for ending world hunger and bringing world peace in our time. Unfortunately it is pure bunk and I was surprised you were so easily taken in. Remember the space ship behind the comet that all those web page designers "fled to" via ritual suicide? Well, unfortunately they took the plans for building this perpetual motion machine with them. Why they left just this one particular devotee behind is a grand mystery.
This is the stuff of legends (URBAN LEGENDS!)
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
You're right, Pat. Some things just ain't doable. For instance there's no way in the world we could ever put a man on the moon or a space ship on Mars. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] And as a fellow once told me the first time he saw a 747 in the air, "That's a figment of your imagination; no way anything that big could fly." [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
Bird, Not you too.... ARGHHHH There must be someone driving around with a truckload of big green pods, dropping them off at the locations of our best subscribers. Only deficient replicants who are a part of a conspiracy would defend the undefendable.
Warning Warning Slamfire, be wary, you too have demonstrated in the past an IQ above room temperature and expressed a scientific skepticism on the perpetual motion topic as well. You may well be marked for your very own pod.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
[img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Pat, I don't disagree with you, but then I don't disagree with what Cowboydoc said either. New things are learned and new inventions occur because someone "lived outside the box". Now I agree that some things just cannot be, but then some things I've thought couldn't be came to pass. And, while I'm not very smart, I am smart enough to know that I, personally, have no imagination, originality, etc. I'm pretty good at reading the instructions and learning, and even applying what I learn (usually) but very poor at original ideas.
Proof you want...
This is what I know.
The hydrogen powered car was built in Grove City, Ohio and was on all of the local TV station news casts and was written up in the Columbus Dispatch just as you said it would be if something like this was built. I was there I think it was 1985.
Putting a upside down dinning room table on plane with an outboard was written up in Mechanics Illustrated in the late 1970's, photo's articles and all. I think Evinrude sponsored this. I wasn't there but it was in the magazine which does have significant circulationm, so that will have to do.
Making an F4 fly was done before we discussed what it would take to make a brick fly. Not literally a brick but something like a brick that had no areodynamics. My father flew F4's in the 60's so I just took his word for it.
Who told me about the battery situation with the Prius, well a Toyota dealer told me and apparently Toyota mentioned it to more than one auto industry writer as this was published more than once in the last two years in magazines like Autoweek, Motorweek, etc. Every auto industry analyst who has looked at the Prius and Insight has stated these are good ideas, but not good investments, especially the Insight. They are paid to know this stuff... I'm not so there must be something to it.
Later
Bird, I have spent most of my life outside "THE BOX" and have been accused, usually with good reason. of being a maverick. I guess I have certain failings and narrow-mindedness in regards to selected areas of interest. I would have missed out on a grand adventure due to this because, unlike Jack, I would not have traded the cow, the family's last nugget of value, for a magic bean, and would therefore have not encountered the golden egg laying goose, nor the giant.
I am an avid reader and viewer of science fiction, I'm a treckie. I was inculcated in Hobbit trivia decades ahead of mass popularity. I. Asimov has always been one of my heroes but not just for his terrific sci-fi but because he is a bonified scientist and author of excellent scientific texts as well. He knew where to draw the line between fiction and fact. He would not have traded the cow for the bean either.
There are various common logical errors related to misinterpretation of syllogisms. An example: Folks have said x and y are impossible but they have come to pass. Someone now says that z is impossible (THEREFORE based on our previous experience) that too must be incorrect making z possible. Nothing is made possible just by claiming it to be impossible. Certain things are impossible. Pi is an irrational number incapable of being represented precisely by a ratio of whole numbers. You can get arbitrarily close, maybe close enough for any particular purpose, but not "just right."
Recall the big furor over "bending spoons by mental energy" a while back? Skeptics were just not "open" to non-traditional spiritual auras and psychic powers and such. Hidden cameras were employed to debunk some of these sessions and reproducible "stage magic" allowed others to bend spoons with their "psychic" powers.
Nearly everyone has areas of expertise where their training and experience makes them expert and other areas where perhaps they are less qualified. Take Spock for example, the Dr. of baby book fame not the "pointy eared devil." He was regaled as a baby raising expert but tried his hand at trying to direct the US foreign policy through war protests and made a fool of himself. How about Linus Pauling the world class physicist who went on a mega dose vitamin C crusade? He had zero training in nutrition. A lot of folks got overdosed.
I truly respect the wisdom, expertise, and common sense that you and Coyboydoc have amassed and luckily share with us here. I am most fortunate to be able to read your opinions and comments on many topics. However, this isn't one of those times. I know you are well meaning and I think I understand your motivation. I'm not trying to rekindle the "dark ages" or stifle innovative thinking. I'm just applying my experience and training. I don't intend to be disrespectful just steadfast in my conviction that claims of perpetual motion, however glibly or cleverly made are ultimately bogus.
Lets strip away all the window dressing and all the "out of the box" comments and look at the central issue. Temporarily set aside the "mechanism" supposedly employed and consider just this one thing. The claim made is successful demonstration of perpetual motion. Either you believe that perpetual motion is NOW possible, or you don't. If you don't believe it then it is inconsistent to accept the BS couched in urban myth style. If you do believe it, you do so at your own intellectual peril in opposition to every knowledgeable scientist and engineer on the planet.
Perpetual motion violates a most fundamental law of the universe. To have demonstrated this would have created a media blitz far in excess of any yet produced, including VE and or VJ day or 9-11. Great wealth and power far far in excess of Bill Gates would have been virtually immediately available to the person or persons who could demonstrate even the poorest working example. This would have been one of the bigest discoveries in the history of man, way beyone man walking on the moon, polio vaccine, the H-bomb, or just about anything you could find in any history book. Gee, aren't we lucky here at CBN, the only folks gifted with this revelation.
Yet, the only evidence offered of its existance is this urban myth about "I know this guy who..."
I do not exaggerate the importance of this demonstration were it true. It would, in a short time, elliminate the use of petrochemoicals for fuel. It would elliminate centralized electrical generation by utility companies and distrubution of power by the "grid" and its transmission lines in favor of distributed generation, neighborhood or individual.
This perpetual motiion machine would be as big of a deal as someone "inventing" a special area code prefix that when dialed transported the dialer to the location of the phone dialed. If I claimed I did that would you well meaning people come to my defense against rational nay sayers? How about if I cloaked it in a clever urban myth style "story?"
I am fully aware that just because something has never been done previously it doesn't mean it can not ever be done. For everything that is doable, there is always a first time. For the rest there is unsubstantiated wishful thinking, in this instance, portrayed in urban myth form. I'm claiming that there never actually existed a demonstration of the process claimed. At best it was a case of poor experimental method but more likely it was a casual repetition of something the story teller could not discern as poppycock. There, of course, are other possibilities, none of which I claim to be true, that do not auger well for the intent of the story teller.
I would love to have any tangible evidence whatsoever offered. Chicken Little has claimed the sky is falling. Before we all run into the cave with the fox for our protection, lets ask to see some samples of pieces of sky, even little bity non-lethal pieces.
If you choose to believe in the tooth fairy, I can only point out reasons why some of the rest of us don't. I can't force you against your will to give up your convictions and beliefs whether or not they have no basis in fact. I'm just a bit surprised that folks are so easily converted to a religiouis faith of believing in perpetual motion. It is on faith, isn't it? No evidence is offered. In the responsible scientific community proof is not assumed by assertion. The claimant has the burden of proof. It is not encumbent upon the community to disprove a claim. Where is the proof?
Typically in the scientific community, including medical science, journals or recognized bodies receive papers and other evidence of a "discovery. " Other researchers attempt to repeat the experiment. Unsubstantiated claims are more the territory of the "National Enquirer" and are printed next to other claims like, "Florida man says the space aliens are raping his chickens again afer an 11 year hiatus! - -Possible sun spot connection!!!"
Isn't is amazing that someone would avoid being a mega-bilionaire with their casual discovery of a way to do the "impossible?" Too bad the only "published evidence" is a casual telling of an urban myth.
Anyway, I got this water front property in Florida called Okeeefanokee Estates and was wondering if anyone would like to buy some?
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
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